Unforgiven 4K UHD (1992)

[cochon]

No prob, I was wondering what you were talking about

[Colson]

The first time saw Unforgiven, I thought it was pretty meh. Then, I got a UHD TV and BD player and saw it on the shelf on sale and thought, "What the heck? Why not."

After my second viewing, I couldn't believe I didn't like it the first time. It's a lovely film about questioning notions of who is and is not a hero. It's about love changing a person. It's even a very strong pro-second amendment piece (it's rather on the nose about this point).

Everything shot is directed so beautifully, and the finale is fantastically tense and badass.

Just a great movie.

[Charlie_C]

I just swapped my copy for another, hopefully I don't experience the same problem.

[cynatnite]

Originally Posted by Colson

The first time saw Unforgiven, I thought it was pretty meh. Then, I got a UHD TV and BD player and saw it on the shelf on sale and thought, "What the heck? Why not."

After my second viewing, I couldn't believe I didn't like it the first time. It's a lovely film about questioning notions of who is and is not a hero. It's about love changing a person. It's even a very strong pro-second amendment piece (it's rather on the nose about this point).

Everything shot is directed so beautifully, and the finale is fantastically tense and badass.

Just a great movie.

Considering how Munny felt about killing and it's set in the old west, as well, pro-second amendment it was not. Everything else, you're right on the money. And yeah, it was filmed beautifully, too.

[LoSouL]

Why would a good woman love a bad man? What good is a bad man in a "good" world? Why do you drink the pain away but the hang man doesn't? Is law and order and peer validation just a guise of righteousness that absolves guilt and negates any onset of remorse? Why tell a lie to get help? Why believe a convenient half truth to set yourself on a path of destruction, on the way to that sense of purpose you want, doing what you're good at... and finally having a reason to take that drink you'll need afterwards.

I definitely think the moral ambiguity, abuse of authority and lack of justice (or at least satisfaction from revenge) brings up second amendment kind of questions. When no one can be the boss, because everyone has power, there is no institutional power. Just rights and wrongs, to be witnessed and open to interpretation. Feel free to post a bounty if you feel some type of way about it. A bad man will surely come calling, but you may not get what you want out of utilizing someone else's power as your own.

[cynatnite]

Originally Posted by LoSouL

Why would a good woman love a bad man? What good is a bad man in a "good" world? Why do you drink the pain away but the hang man doesn't? Is law and order and peer validation just a guise of righteousness that absolves guilt and negates any onset of remorse? Why tell a lie to get help? Why believe a convenient half truth to set yourself on a path of destruction, on the way to that sense of purpose you want, doing what you're good at... and finally having a reason to take that drink you'll need afterwards.

I definitely think the moral ambiguity, abuse of authority and lack of justice (or at least satisfaction from revenge) brings up second amendment kind of questions. When no one can be the boss, because everyone has power, there is no institutional power. Just rights and wrongs, to be witnessed and open to interpretation. Feel free to post a bounty if you feel some type of way about it. A bad man will surely come calling, but you may not get what you want out of utilizing someone else's power as your own.

It's not about the right to bear arms. Guns were a part of the old west so it's a given that pretty much everyone is carrying them and using them to obtain justice, revenge or whatever the case may be.

[LoSouL]

It makes me think of:

[LoSouL]

Originally Posted by cynatnite

It's not about the right to bear arms. Guns were a part of the old west so it's a given that pretty much everyone is carrying them and using them to obtain justice, revenge or whatever the case may be.

I get what you mean now, that it's just part of the fabric of the world, not a message. I just see it as an element of the seeking justice story, not an evangelizing thing. The love of a woman could be seen as an analogue for gentrification the same way a frontier town is. Surrendering power for the sake of order and convenience.

[gwsat]

cynatnite and LoSouL -- Your recent very interesting exchanges here reinforce my opinion that Unforgiven may be the best western ever made. Its exploration of self delusion and the destructive power of unintended consequences provides almost limitless food for thought.

[Colson]

In the movie, the government (the sheriff) takes all the guns away, then becomes corrupt. Only a good guy with a gun (Munny) is able to save the town and exact justice on the evildoers in it.

Seems pretty pro-second amendment to me.

[cynatnite]

Originally Posted by Colson

In the movie, the government (the sheriff) takes all the guns away, then becomes corrupt. Only a good guy with a gun (Munny) is able to save the town and exact justice on the evildoers in it.

Seems pretty pro-second amendment to me.

But it's not about the guns at all and Munny wasn't doing it to save the town. Munny doesn't even see himself as a good guy. He even talks about it. Plus, Munny wasn't exacting justice on evildoers. He was taking revenge for Ned's death and being paid by the prostitutes.

Your description could fit a multitude of other westerns. This particular western broke the mold of the others that came before it by questioning what a "hero" was and Clint Eastwood was the perfect vehicle for that because of his past roles as a "hero" in previous westerns. This is why it's a brilliant film and why it's one of the few westerns I truly love.

If you choose to see it that way, that's your choice.

[LoSouL]

Originally Posted by gwsat

cynatnite and LoSouL -- Your recent very interesting exchanges here reinforce my opinion that Unforgiven may be the best western ever made. Its exploration of self delusion and the destructive power of unintended consequences provides almost limitless food for thought.

Could be, yeah. I don't think they set out to be deep in a pretentious way, just tell a solid story in a believable world with believable people, and it can consequentially make you think about it if you want to. It's probably the element of remorse that opens it up. Most westerns (still awesome) just operate on the idea that you probably already know the world is crazy and terrible, and are here for escapism and righteousness. Shoot first, ask later + Wild America.

I don't know enough westerns to rank them. I appreciate and relate to them way more now than I did as a kid, when they just seemed old and boring. I do enjoy this one and love some Sergio Leonne (perfect for UHD). There's so many classics in every genre I'd like to see.

[LoSouL]

Just remembered Tim Roth's character in Hateful Eight goes into a lot of this stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjXHOCbj0yU

[Fat Phil]

Originally Posted by Colson

In the movie, the government (the sheriff) takes all the guns away, then becomes corrupt. Only a good guy with a gun (Munny) is able to save the town and exact justice on the evildoers in it.

Seems pretty pro-second amendment to me.

Obviously everyone's entitled to their perspective but this strikes me as one of the crazier interpretations.

1) Little Bill isn't corrupt. He's a hard ass with some um, shall we say 'questionable methods' for enforcing the town's laws but he believes himself to be an honourable man - a man of strong character. One of the best final exchanges ever uttered by a character by the way - "I don't deserve this. I was building a house."

2) "Save the town" - Munny gives exactly zero s**** about the town. He's in it for the money.

3) As for "exacting justice on the evil doers" - In the closing scenes, Munny is driven by pure rage. His motivation is vengeance.

[LoSouL]

By our standards, Little Bill and his crew do get pretty bad by the end. Fear, the need for order and control, and the authority to run amok take over. It's not power he took, but was granted. He becomes an extension of social dysfunction pushed into a rube goldberg machine by a tide of malcontent. That doesn't necessarily make him inherently worse than anyone else, because "when the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other"

In the opening sequence I couldn't help but think Little Bill's reasoning was rational and that the women wanted more than their fair share of blood and mutilation. Maybe it's not the face and appearance mattered less to men of that era, but it's not like whipping a man wouldn't have drawn plenty of blood, and left some severe scarring and mental trauma. It's no small thing like Bill said.

Okay, physical punishment's not good enough? We aren't going to kill him, so how about monetary punishment? Loss for them, gain for us. Logically, you'd be remiss not to make commercial gains off punishment, and recoup something out of someone rather than disposing of them while still in the red. Ideally, a bundle of fine horses would actually better the town and the lives in it. Of course, nobody wants to be property, or feel like someone's dog and terrorized by violence, while waiting for trickle down economics to kick in.

Still not good enough? Okay, get your bounty hunter. Now we're all dead and you don't have a pimp or laws anymore, so you're free, but damn... good luck on your own out here. Did I really deserve this? Are you an angel yourself?

It's like the idea that revenge won't bring anyone back or change anything, it just feels good and lets the mind move on. Wild Bill is an agent of justice, not a victim there to feel exactly what victims feel. That's what that Hateful Eight clip is talking about. And of course, he's a human being in the context of the old west, not an AI making mathematically perfect, King Solomon decisions.

Munny's not there for the town and at the end it's just revenge, but I think he also wanted to feel like he could redeem himself, and the money would come in handy so why not? Diseased hogs, two kids, no woman. He heard a tragic story about a woman who got mutilated way worse than she really did, and didn't hear anything about recompense, so it sounded like a righteous cause.

I think the main difference between Bill and Munny, is that Bill never felt penitent about anything, never carried a cross. We don't know if Bill ever did things as bad as Munny did... he was a true outlaw. That's why Bill was still cruel and full of himself around English Bob and eager to brag to a sensationalist vulture. Not until Munny came anyway. Even at his moment of death, he feels wronged, not like he was visited upon by the sins of his own past.

[cynatnite]

^^^THIS^^^

Great insight!

[Colson]

Originally Posted by Fat Phil

Obviously everyone's entitled to their perspective but this strikes me as one of the crazier interpretations.

1) Little Bill isn't corrupt. He's a hard ass with some um, shall we say 'questionable methods' for enforcing the town's laws but he believes himself to be an honourable man - a man of strong character. One of the best final exchanges ever uttered by a character by the way - "I don't deserve this. I was building a house."

2) "Save the town" - Munny gives exactly zero s**** about the town. He's in it for the money.

3) As for "exacting justice on the evil doers" - In the closing scenes, Munny is driven by pure rage. His motivation is vengeance.

To me, the movie tries to show us that despite what each man thinks about himself, Bill is ultimately the bad guy and Munny the good guy, regardless of their pasts. Bill's belief that he is the good guy is kind of his undoing. Of course Bill doesn't think he deserves what he's getting, but he does.

And yes, Munny is there to exact revenge on the people that needlessly murdered his friend then displayed his corpse as a scare tactic. It's righteous rage.

[imsounoriginal]

Originally Posted by LoSouL

[Show spoiler]By our standards, Little Bill and his crew do get pretty bad by the end. Fear, the need for order and control, and the authority to run amok take over. It's not power he took, but was granted. He becomes an extension of social dysfunction pushed into a rube goldberg machine by a tide of malcontent. That doesn't necessarily make him inherently worse than anyone else, because "when the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other"

In the opening sequence I couldn't help but think Little Bill's reasoning was rational and that the women wanted more than their fair share of blood and mutilation. Maybe it's not the face and appearance mattered less to men of that era, but it's not like whipping a man wouldn't have drawn plenty of blood, and left some severe scarring and mental trauma. It's no small thing like Bill said.

Okay, physical punishment's not good enough? We aren't going to kill him, so how about monetary punishment? Loss for them, gain for us. Logically, you'd be remiss not to make commercial gains off punishment, and recoup something out of someone rather than disposing of them while still in the red. Ideally, a bundle of fine horses would actually better the town and the lives in it. Of course, nobody wants to be property, or feel like someone's dog and terrorized by violence, while waiting for trickle down economics to kick in.

Still not good enough? Okay, get your bounty hunter. Now we're all dead and you don't have a pimp or laws anymore, so you're free, but damn... good luck on your own out here. Did I really deserve this? Are you an angel yourself?

[Show spoiler]It's like the idea that revenge won't bring anyone back or change anything, it just feels good and lets the mind move on. Wild Bill is an agent of justice, not a victim there to feel exactly what victims feel. That's what that Hateful Eight clip is talking about. And of course, he's a human being in the context of the old west, not an AI making mathematically perfect, King Solomon decisions.

Munny's not there for the town and at the end it's just revenge, but I think he also wanted to feel like he could redeem himself, and the money would come in handy so why not? Diseased hogs, two kids, no woman. He heard a tragic story about a woman who got mutilated way worse than she really did, and didn't hear anything about recompense, so it sounded like a righteous cause.

I think the main difference between Bill and Munny, is that Bill never felt penitent about anything, never carried a cross. We don't know if Bill ever did things as bad as Munny did... he was a true outlaw. That's why Bill was still cruel and full of himself around English Bob and eager to brag to a sensationalist vulture. Not until Munny came anyway. Even at his moment of death, he feels wronged, not like he was visited upon by the sins of his own past.

But seriously, great post.

[gwsat]

As I said in my last post, my belief in the greatness of Unforgiven has been reinforced by the terrific posts to this thread. To me the best part about the film is that none of its actors were all good or all bad. They ended up being victims of their own bad decisions and bad luck. This included Bill Munny who had to face what he had earlier convinced himself was no longer true, that he was still the same remorseless drunken killer he had always been. I may watch it again this evening.

[imsounoriginal]

The Kid's a good character, at least as far as the gunslingers go. Yeah he has ambitions of being a no-good, dirty sum*****, but he's all talk. Never really does anything.