Unforgiven 4K UHD (1992)

[freinhar]

The discussion above just makes me want to rewatch this movie so badly. Completely agree that it reinforces me view of it being one of (if not the) best Western of all time.

[Fat Phil]

Originally Posted by Colson

To me, the movie tries to show us that despite what each man thinks about himself, Bill is ultimately the bad guy and Munny the good guy, regardless of their pasts. Bill's belief that he is the good guy is kind of his undoing. Of course Bill doesn't think he deserves what he's getting, but he does.

And yes, Munny is there to exact revenge on the people that needlessly murdered his friend then displayed his corpse as a scare tactic. It's righteous rage.

While we don't see eye to eye on the particulars, it is fascinating to hear other takes on the subject matter.

I do like the bolded part above. That's such wonderfully rich character trait that Gene Hackman nails. The Academy Award was well deserved.

Originally Posted by gwsat

As I said in my last post, my belief in the greatness of Unforgiven has been reinforced by the terrific posts to this thread. To me the best part about the film is that none of its actors were all good or all bad. They ended up being victims of their own bad decisions and bad luck. This included Bill Munny who had to face what he had earlier convinced himself was no longer true, that he was still the same remorseless drunken killer he had always been. I may watch it again this evening.

Absolutely, and that's why I find it strange when I hear people try to label any character in the movie the 'good guy' or 'bad guy'. The vicious former outlaw turned dutiful husband and father - is he the good guy? The righteous but vindictive lawman, always eager to dole out a brutal beating - is he our good guy? Such is the genius of Unforgiven.

One of the classic lines from the movie "Deserves got nothin' to do with it." is of course the perfect summation of all that's come before. Whether it's Little Bill's surprise at his imminent death. Or the fate of Ned, one of the few characters who couldn't bring himself to kill - he no longer had violence in his heart. And then there's the partner of the guy who cut up Delilah - he was a seemingly sweet kid, genuinely eager to make amends - is he spared?

Few modern movies are as complex from a character standpoint. Each time there is something new that jumps out. This week when I watched it I became fascinated by the character of Delilah. She is the one attacked but does not appear to crave the revenge that the other prostitutes are so desperate for. We never hear her opinion on the matter. She's drowned out by the hysteria of the others. When she's offered the horse, she seems touched. She certainly doesn't seem to be harbouring any hatred. Has she forgiven? In the end it doesn't matter of course because the wheels of violence have been put in motion.

[LoSouL]

Originally Posted by Fat Phil

Few modern movies are as complex from a character standpoint. Each time there is something new that jumps out. This week when I watched it I became fascinated by the character of Delilah. She is the one attacked but does not appear to crave the revenge that the other prostitutes are so desperate for. We never hear her opinion on the matter. She's drowned out by the hysteria of the others. When she's offered the horse, she seems touched. She certainly doesn't seem to be harbouring any hatred. Has she forgiven? In the end it doesn't matter of course because the wheels of violence have been put in motion.

That, for sure. Especially when they chase off the horses. This stuff's on my mind too 'cause I watched it again yesterday after reading the newer posts ITT.

Ain't that how it is in the world, though? Someone always wants to run with someone else's tribulation. Maybe it's just "family" feeling more intensely about what another family member tolerates. Maybe it's someone taking up for her in a way she doesn't have the self esteem and confidence to. Or maybe Alice is just projecting her own lifetime of indentured sex work, lack of options, and god knows what else in her past onto it, riling everyone up to get revenge for anything on anyone around, just to feel powerful as someone who probably never has.

Previous viewings, she was just "hooker with a heart of gold" archetype in my head and I didn't think much about it either.

[Nothing371]

This is a great discussion. I look forward to watching this movie again with open eyes.

I did pick up on most of these themes on the first viewing however.

[LoSouL]

Originally Posted by imsounoriginal

The Kid's a good character, at least as far as the gunslingers go. Yeah he has ambitions of being a no-good, dirty sum*****, but he's all talk. Never really does anything.

Yeah, he's alright. He contributes enough to all the working parts of it. He exaggerates to Munny to get his help. He lies to seem tough. He shows how a lifetime of drinking away remorse starts. A parallel for how the young, cut up prostitute is put on what will be a lifelong path of feeling robbed. It's like the people who do the least in the movie are the cleanest, for now.

[cynatnite]

Originally Posted by LoSouL

Yeah, he's alright. He contributes enough to all the working parts of it. He exaggerates to Munny to get his help. He lies to seem tough. He shows how a lifetime of drinking away remorse starts. A parallel for how the young, cut up prostitute is put what will be a lifelong path of feeling robbed. It's like the people who do the least in the movie are the only ones close to being clean, for now.

Maybe he's a reflection of Munny in his younger days before his life of killing and all that. Only this time, the kid makes a different decision than the one Munny made when he was that age.

Yeah, I'll go pop this in tonight.

[Fat Phil]

Are we all loving English Bob's fantastic change of accent by the way. Wonderfully articulate 'Queen's English' one moment, deteriorating into a much rougher cockney-esque accent as he screams at people in the carriage on the way out of town. The facade well and truly slipping away at that point

Surely serving as inspiration for 'The Hateful Eight'.

[Colson]

Originally Posted by Fat Phil

While we don't see eye to eye on the particulars, it is fascinating to hear other takes on the subject matter.

I do like the bolded part above. That's such wonderfully rich character trait that Gene Hackman nails. The Academy Award was well deserved.



Absolutely, and that's why I find it strange when I hear people try to label any character in the movie the 'good guy' or 'bad guy'. The vicious former outlaw turned dutiful husband and father - is he the good guy? The righteous but vindictive lawman, always eager to dole out a brutal beating - is he our good guy? Such is the genius of Unforgiven.

One of the classic lines from the movie "Deserves got nothin' to do with it." is of course the perfect summation of all that's come before. Whether it's Little Bill's surprise at his imminent death. Or the fate of Ned, one of the few characters who couldn't bring himself to kill - he no longer had violence in his heart. And then there's the partner of the guy who cut up Delilah - he was a seemingly sweet kid, genuinely eager to make amends - is he spared?

Few modern movies are as complex from a character standpoint. Each time there is something new that jumps out. This week when I watched it I became fascinated by the character of Delilah. She is the one attacked but does not appear to crave the revenge that the other prostitutes are so desperate for. We never hear her opinion on the matter. She's drowned out by the hysteria of the others. When she's offered the horse, she seems touched. She certainly doesn't seem to be harbouring any hatred. Has she forgiven? In the end it doesn't matter of course because the wheels of violence have been put in motion.

I've really loved this discussion, everyone.

Just continuing, I think I was a it too broad when I said that Munny was "the good guy" and Bill "the bad guy." I simply meant that, near the end of the film, this seems to be the case. That said, the ambiguity of the characters' morals and what being a "good" guy means is a huge point of enjoyment of the film.

And yes, Gene Hackman is amazing in this film. Like seriously, dang.

[cynatnite]

Watching this again I'm struck by the symmetry of the film. Munny is a "reformed" bad guy who is really a terrible pig farmer. Little Bill thinks himself the good guy who is a terrible carpenter.

Munny likely started his killing and all that about the same age as the Kid. After Ned's death, Munny asks for the Kid's gun. The Kid hands it over saying he doesn't want it back and that he's done with killing. I wondered if Munny saw some of himself in the cocky Kid during their journey. I thought it was a little funny that the Kid was practically blind as a bat. James Woolvett really did good work here. It's got to be tough as hell when you're put between Clint Eastwood and Morgan Freeman.

All the while, Munny is telling Ned that he's not that bad guy from years before. Insisting his wife cured him of all that. In the end, he is just that and he knows it.

Beauchamp is one of the more interesting characters, I think. He sees English Bob as a hero and then realizes that he's not. Then he looks at Little Bob and thinks that's the hero and all that. Don't insult him about his house, though. Then he sees Little Bob for what he is. The camera shot to him in that moment and in the moment when he sees Munny in the bar, shows this realization. He just latches onto whomever he believes the "hero" to be.

Delilah is the most understated character out of all this. Even though what happened to her drives the story, she stands in the background of all the drama that plays out. She never asked for any of it. It wasn't her that was willing to hire someone to kill the cowboys. I think she would've taken the pony if anyone had bothered to ask her. I don't think she wanted any of it at all, but Alice wouldn't have it. The only person who seemed to place any value on her at all was Munny when he talked about his dead wife. He treated Delilah like a person whose opinion mattered.

In the end, Munny becomes the thing he despises. A drinking murderer. When he's coming out of the saloon and warns those outside what he would do if any of them takes a shot at him, I'm reminded of the Kid. The man Munny used to be is out in full force.

This is just a brilliant film and it's easily gets a top ten spot in my all-time favorites. It's flawless, IMO. Not one unnecessary scene, no senseless dialogue, and no tropes to speak of.

Million Dollar Baby was always my favorite Clint Eastwood film. Now it's number two.

[Charlie_C]

Originally Posted by Charlie_C

Has anyone else had an issue with this disc?

I started to watch it and just before you see Clint for the first time the audio cut out and the picture stuttered and juddered along. I stopped the disc and resumed and it happened again but this time it was about 30 seconds later. I took the disc out, resumed and again it played okay this time for a couple of minutes before the problem reoccured. So it's obviously not specific to a certain point on the disc but will just occur randomly at any given moment. 4k player firmware is up to date and it's the UK disc if that makes a difference.

I'll probably just have to take it back and swap for a new copy but it's pretty annoying.

I got around to checking my replacement disc just now and I still have the same problem. So it's either a bad batch or my player (Samsung UBD-K8500) is causing the issue, but considering I haven't had any other problems with my other (20+) 4k discs so far I'm thinking it's unlikely to be the player.

Has anyone else had this problem? Should I give up and swap this for a different film? I really wanted to see this in 4k but it's going to be really disheartening if the third disc is no different

[Paul.R.S]

Interesting/frustrating, Charlie_C. Since no one has yet responded here, if you have not I'd be sure to post word in the player owner threads on this site and especially AVS Forum. Since this is a fairly new release, it is possible that this is a new issue. If I were you, I'd therefore be contacting Samsung as well.

[Charlie_C]

Originally Posted by Paul.R.S

Interesting/frustrating, Charlie_C. Since no one has yet responded here, if you have not I'd be sure to post word in the player owner threads on this site and especially AVS Forum. Since this is a fairly new release, it is possible that this is a new issue. If I were you, I'd therefore be contacting Samsung as well.

Thanks, I'm still wondering whether it actually could be the player to be honest.

[JosieWales]

Originally Posted by Charlie_C

Thanks, I'm still wondering whether it actually could be the player to be honest.

While reading through these forum post (this one and several other threads),It seems there are a lot of folks that have issues with some discs playing on their Samsung player.
My brother in law had a Samsung blu ray player (not 4K), and had troubles playing the second Harry Potter movie out of his box set. He even bought the second movie alone, to replace what he thought was a faulty disc from the set. This one would not play either. He brought it to my place to test on my Oppo 203. It played fine for me.
I'm not sure what it is about the Samsung players, but when folks have trouble playing certain titles, it seems that they are usually using the Samsung.

[AKORIS]

Originally Posted by JosieWales

While reading through these forum post (this one and several other threads),It seems there are a lot of folks that have issues with some discs playing on their Samsung player.
My brother in law had a Samsung blu ray player (not 4K), and had troubles playing the second Harry Potter movie out of his box set. He even bought the second movie alone, to replace what he thought was a faulty disc from the set. This one would not play either. He brought it to my place to test on my Oppo 203. It played fine for me.
I'm not sure what it is about the Samsung players, but when folks have trouble playing certain titles, it seems that they are usually using the Samsung.

and yet there's been quite a few posts lately about freezing 4k discs on Sony and LG players...........

[gwsat]

I have been amazed by the many posts I have seen about problems with UHD HDR disks, not only in this thread but in others, both here and at AVS Forum. It looks like the disk and player manufacturers still have some problems to solve before UHD HDR disks can provide the same level of reliability as 1080P BDs have long given us.

[LoSouL]

Yeah, they're sensitive and picky. Spotless discs on stationary devices trying to act up... c'mon man.

[MD-Blu]

How's the PQ and is it worth upgrading?

[HeavyHitter]

Originally Posted by MD-Blu

How's the PQ and is it worth upgrading?

Absolutely worth upgrading. No brainer.

[heinzw]

I recently picked this up, along with Blade Runner. Played great until about an hour in. Started freezing momentarily, then played, then stopped again. Tried skipping forward but it kept messing up. Disappointed because it's a great movie and the PQ is fantastic, a definite improvement over the 1080 version.

Out of the ten or so discs I own this is the only one to have an issue. All other UHD discs have played flawlessly. My machine is the OPPO 205, so the problem isn't just with Samsung players.

So do I return the disc to Best Buy or send it to Warners directly for a replacement?

[legends of beyond]

Originally Posted by cynatnite

and no tropes to speak of.

To be fair, having no tropes is a trope in and of itself, though even then, that's not entirely true.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/Unforgiven