HDR Discussion Thread

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Point of order sir! Natural History was first (Planet Earth 2 from the BBC - the 4K disc is a conversion TO HDR10 from the HLG master that's been used for broadcasting tests). Opera was second, I think? A couple of months ago there was that live test opera broadcast? So sport was a long way back in third

Thanks for the factual update. AFAIK we got none of that here in the colonies.
HLG sounds like a good system for broadcast content, no matter what the source

[RockyIII]

Originally Posted by gkolb

I can not know for sure, but the displays in the stores are most probably set on "vivid" even in HDR mode, so part of that "pop" is gonna be superficial.

Nothing like vivid mode with color temperature:cold and motion interpolation on high...showroom style

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

sports first

You can’t appreciate it in the pic I posted back on page 127, but those teams’ uniforms that are really white, be it the Dodgers
(or, for instance, for the understanding of our Euro football fans, Real Madrid’s kit or the German National team, most recently -

Czech Republic vs Germany 1-2 - Goals & Highlights - World Cup Qualifiers 01.09.2017 HD - YouTube

we won’t comment on the U.S.A. National team - https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/new...l-off-shocker/ as the loss may still be too devastating for PeterTHX, a big soccer fan )

Anyway with the SDR broadcast of the Giants v. Dodgers, the Dodger’s uniforms appeared as a flat white or blown out because given the truncated range of SDR, the image is pushed to its limit, whereas with HDR, the white uniforms got rendered with a lot more detail, i.e. more texture to the white fabric. Point being, HDR helps on both ends, the dark and the whites and of course the shades of colors in between. as compared to SDR.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Staying Salty

My 8 Ball says this is a more “Political situation” and that it’s Technicolor in the USA and HLG in Europe.

Don’t rule out live Dolby Vision, they’re coming - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...r#post13948613

They would like to dominate that space too.

[PaulGo]

HDR Tech Bottleneck Slows but Can’t Stop 4K Transition

Complications Abound, but SES Is Demonstrating They Aren’t Insurmountable

http://www.screenplaysmag.com/2017/0...4k-transition/

[HeatEquation]

This German site is saying that Philips is considering HDR10+, too.

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...a-3820540.html

[gkolb]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

HDR Tech Bottleneck Slows but Can’t Stop 4K Transition

Complications Abound, but SES Is Demonstrating They Aren’t Insurmountable

http://www.screenplaysmag.com/2017/0...4k-transition/

Great article, many topics discussed.
Comcast may have HDR broadcasts of 2018 Winter Olympics.
I'm stuck with Spectrum, no idea if they'll get into HDR.

It still gives me hope.

[HeatEquation]

Interesting tweet from Vincent Teoh in response to a question about a 2017 Panasonic displaying HDR10+ via HDMI.

Vincent Teoh‏
@Vincent_Teoh
That's a misconception. HDMI 2.1 is not necessary for dynamic metadata such as HDR10+ and Dolby Vision.

https://twitter.com/Vincent_Teoh/sta...10439965057025

[DanBa]

As far as I understand, HDR10+ does need the HDMI 2.1 feature Transport of ST 2094 dynamic metadata.

HDR10 does need the HDMI 2.0a feature Transport of static metadata.

Proprietary Dolby Vision dynamic metadata are embedded into the flow of Dolby Vision video sent over HDMI 1.4.

ST 2094-10 Dolby Vision does need the HDMI 2.1 feature Transport of ST 2094 dynamic metadata
(possible future ATSC 3.0 STB >> HDMI 2.1 (with dynamic metadata feature) >> ST 2094-10 Dolby Vision compliant TV).
https://www.atsc.org/candidate-stand...dment-2094-10/


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/465-hi...l#post54128881

https://twitter.com/JohnnyFocal/stat...06883946131456

[Geoff D]

Again: special sauce firmware/hardware is likely at play in those demos. In an official capacity then yes, you'll need a 2.1 firmware upgrade and/or new pieces of 2.1 hardware outright in order to transmit/receive it from a player to TV, but unofficially they can do whatever fiddling they want, like sending the metadata in a different packet or signalling system than what it will officially be ratified as. Hell, in May of last year Penton posted a picture of HLG evaluation taking place for German TV, with custom HLG firmware loaded onto the Sony TV in the middle almost a full year before the HLG update actually went out. Shit happens.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

....Hell, in May of last year Penton posted a picture of HLG evaluation taking place for German TV, with custom HLG firmware loaded onto the Sony TV in the middle almost a full year before the HLG update actually went out. Shit happens.

Reminds me, I truly fear for you and me both this year in the Prem. At least Steed can only go up....I think.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by gkolb

info vacuum

gkolb, I’ll be MIA throughout next week while down in San Diego (and I’m not planning on doing any stinkin AV reporting…if anything, only a fun pic or two) so meanwhile by the time I return I hope to see you and other posters, Geoff, Dan, Richard…too numerous now to mention, hoist this thread thru the 400,000 viewership mark with some style…..

Baha Men - Who Let The Dogs Out (Original version) | Full HD | 1080p - YouTube

[HeatEquation]

Vincent was pretty clear, though. HDMI 2.1 is not needed, under any circumstance, to display HDR10+, or any dynamic HDR format, via HDMI. He specifically said it was a misconception.

I trust him, as he's proven that he knows his stuff.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

You can’t appreciate it in the pic I posted back on page 127, but those teams’ uniforms that are really white, be it the Dodgers
(or, for instance, for the understanding of our Euro football fans, Real Madrid’s kit or the German National team, most recently -

Czech Republic vs Germany 1-2 - Goals & Highlights - World Cup Qualifiers 01.09.2017 HD - YouTube
we won’t comment on the U.S.A. National team - https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/new...l-off-shocker/ as the loss may still be too devastating for PeterTHX, a big soccer fan )

Anyway with the SDR broadcast of the Giants v. Dodgers, the Dodger’s uniforms appeared as a flat white or blown out because given the truncated range of SDR, the image is pushed to its limit, whereas with HDR, the white uniforms got rendered with a lot more detail, i.e. more texture to the white fabric. Point being, HDR helps on both ends, the dark and the whites and of course the shades of colors in between. as compared to SDR.

Nice to know Peter is still a huge soccer fan. :

I wonder how Red and White stripes would fare in HDR Penton Man?

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Vincent was pretty clear, though. HDMI 2.1 is not needed, under any circumstance, to display HDR10+, or any dynamic HDR format, via HDMI. He specifically said it was a misconception.

I trust him, as he's proven that he knows his stuff.

I trust him too but he did not use the words "under any circumstance".

There have been other tweets since, at the same link:

BigFly‏ @ComedyFanatic0 11h11 hours ago
Replying to @Vincent_Teoh
Good to know! So then 2016 Samsung TVs that will be updated to support HDR10+ should be able to display HDR10+ via HDMI as well?


Vincent Teoh‏ @Vincent_Teoh 2h2 hours ago
It depends on the chipset. Word is that the 2016 Samsungs can only do HDR10+ via streaming if firmware updated.

This concurs with our current understanding: The 2016 Samsungs will get HDR10+ via streaming capabilities, to watch things from Amazon which fulfills Samsung's carefully-worded promise in their press release.

When it comes to HDR10Plus-over-HDMI and what the 2016 Samsungs can really do in this regard (vested interest, I own one!), we don't know for certain but we've had hints before that they won't be able to do it.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Reminds me, I truly fear for you and me both this year in the Prem. At least Steed can only go up....I think.

Well, after Last weekend, I'm not too sure anymore.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

I trust him too but he did not use the words "under any circumstance".

There have been other tweets since, at the same link:


This concurs with our current understanding: The 2016 Samsungs will get HDR10+ via streaming capabilities, to watch things from Amazon which fulfills Samsung's carefully-worded promise in their press release.

When it comes to HDR10Plus-over-HDMI and what the 2016 Samsungs can really do in this regard (vested interest, I own one!), we don't know for certain but we've had hints before that they won't be able to do it.

Fair enough. Some will be able to without 2.1, though. Looks like the Panasonics may have that ability.

[cgpublic]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Interesting tweet from Vincent Teoh in response to a question about a 2017 Panasonic displaying HDR10+ via HDMI.

His response to the question is a bit misleading, simply because everyone and their mother knows that HDR10+ and Dolby Vision, while both representing utilization of dynamic metadata, have different HDMI requirements.

For him to group the two distinct approaches and say there is some type of 'misunderstanding' is incorrect. There is no widespread misunderstanding as Dolby Vision works with HDMI 1.4 and up, provided every link in the chain allows for the transfer of the metadata.

As far as HDR10+, what has been stated to date is that it requires HDMI 2.1. Now, perhaps he is correct, and it will not require HDMI 2.1 to provide the full benefits of dynamic metadata to all HDR10+ content, and will work with lower version numbers.

Reading between the lines and based on the agreement/commitment from Amazon, HDR10+ dynamic metadata may work using the Amazon stream available directly from the television via the app interface for non-HDMI 2.1 sets.

In other words, no external devices, and no disc media, for HDR10+, unless HDMI 2.1 is present. Perhaps a few 2016/17 Samsung models will have a HDMI FW upgrade, which is how I've always seen it playing out.

In related news, Denon just began updating their 2016 AVRs with FW to allow Dolby Vision and HLG passthrough. This time next year, HDMI 2.1 and ATSC 3 devices will be in market, or at the very least, announced.

Here's something we can all trust to happen: Prepare for live sporting events in 4K HDR.

[andreasy969]

https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...t-3820712.html

According to this, Warner is still behind Dolby Vision, but is also considering HDR10+ now. They are also talking about the possibilty of having both, DV and HDR10+, on one disc. (I don't think I'd like that btw, because I consider both a waste of disc space)

They also state that there were problems with Dolby Vision and that's why there are no Warner Dolby Vision titles yet (resp. had to be cancelled). But the first Warner DV title is supposed to come by the end of the year now.

[Geoff D]

Hmmm. Given the problems that Dobly has had/still has with implementing DV on disc then adding another dynamic system into that mix so that you'd have three formats on a disc (HDR10/10+/DV) opens up a whole 'nuther can of mastering/authoring worms, and it sounds like more trouble than it's worth to me.

However, now I can understand why HDR10+ is being pushed like it is because Dolby have fumbled the ball and if they're not careful then this open source system with its "nominal" fee structure might end up sweeping the dynamic metadata rug from under them.