HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Tonight I had a chance to skim some of the articles by the journos that attended the Sony event in NYC. I find it rather surprising and disappointing that none of them (that I read) in their blogs and such actually queried Sony and/or Netflix reps as to how the Netflix calibrated mode works.

Obtaining from Sony or Netflix a detailed description such as with this paper hitting on converting a P3 colorspace master to rec.2020 methodology by Netflix - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract...3/?reload=true certainly is not expected, but none of the AV writers I’ve read that covered this event have offered even a basic rudimentary explanation of the process to somewhat assure their readers, if not themselves, that this feature is not some marketing gimmick.

From what I can see, all consumers got were generalizations like this – https://advanced-television.com/2018...librated-mode/ , https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/be...es-tvs-1130621 , etc.

I fear that the more savvy videophiles will not accept the assertions as gospel without further technical details.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

I knew ATV used Profile 5, I guess I should of expected it to use level 7. I wonder if Vudu is using level 8 for the higher pixel rate, displays then bring the frame rate down to 24 fps or is that not possible.

Cal, I don't know what they do.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Waboman

Well, as you know I'm but a humble lad. And I wouldn't feel comfortable taking food out of Clooney and Pitts mouths.

you're too kind

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Tonight I had a chance to skim some of the articles by the journos that attended the Sony event in NYC. I find it rather surprising and disappointing that none of them (that I read) in their blogs and such actually queried Sony and/or Netflix reps as to how the Netflix calibrated mode works.

Obtaining from Sony or Netflix a detailed description such as with this paper hitting on converting a P3 colorspace master to rec.2020 methodology by Netflix - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract...3/?reload=true certainly is not expected, but none of the AV writers I’ve read that covered this event have offered even a basic rudimentary explanation of the process to somewhat assure their readers, if not themselves, that this feature is not some marketing gimmick.

From what I can see, all consumers got were generalizations like this – https://advanced-television.com/2018...librated-mode/ , https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/be...es-tvs-1130621 , etc.

I fear that the more savvy videophiles will not accept the assertions as gospel without further technical details.

Netflix is certainly not the only game in town that uses P3 in their mastering pipeline and then converts to 2020. Look at the display information in the HDR metadata for more than 99% of the discs on the market today and you'll see that the displays used were P3 (for HDR titles I think the only exception at the moment might be BR2049). This is common. Most use P3 mastering monitors, some use monitors with a "2020 emulation" mode. The mastering is all done and then it is put through a matrix to 2020 space (coordinate change for 2020). This actually makes a lot of sense since it eliminates the variation in displays that may be used throughout the chain of events. If you had multiple display types that all had varying percentages of 2020 coverage, each could look different than the other in regards to color. But most studio mastering monitors can do P3 pretty well, so it eliminates the risk.

I just had a long discussion about this very thing with someone on the calibration side of things that works directly with Netflix (and other studios).

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

there's a myriad of talk about Canada, the Olympics, soccer and a heap of other nonsese....

for example -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

they say the Fairmont Grand Del Mar was/is a fine hotel to stay at and chill with an iced drink when shooting a feature film with a Sony Venice with its fine dynamic range and an intended 4K DI

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1745960...ef_=tt_dt_spec

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Netflix is certainly not the only game in town that uses P3 in their mastering pipeline and then converts to 2020....

indeed

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

new version – http://software.ff.de/hdr_software_ff_pictures which includes as a feature Dynamic Metadata (import/export of dynamic metadata in between video and already generated JSON files

^ follow-up, now that Resolve 15 Public Beta 7 has just recently become available via a free download from https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/sup...lve-and-fusion.

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/v...p?f=21&t=77242

[LordoftheRings]

What's the reason behind Netflix's 30 frames per second?

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Tonight I had a chance to skim some of the articles by the journos that attended the Sony event in NYC. I find it rather surprising and disappointing that none of them (that I read) in their blogs and such actually queried Sony and/or Netflix reps as to how the Netflix calibrated mode works.

Obtaining from Sony or Netflix a detailed description such as with this paper hitting on converting a P3 colorspace master to rec.2020 methodology by Netflix - https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract...3/?reload=true certainly is not expected, but none of the AV writers I’ve read that covered this event have offered even a basic rudimentary explanation of the process to somewhat assure their readers, if not themselves, that this feature is not some marketing gimmick.

From what I can see, all consumers got were generalizations like this – https://advanced-television.com/2018...librated-mode/ , https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/be...es-tvs-1130621 , etc.

I fear that the more savvy videophiles will not accept the assertions as gospel without further technical details.

It could be just directed at HDR10 streams, I believe Netflix currently supports constant luminance color model ICtCp from Dolby, for Dolby Vision streams (Profile 4 or 5) HDR10 currently, doesn't have compatibility with ICtCp, even if it's apart of the profile string.

Also, I would expect all HDR streams to default to DV.

[Penton-Man]

Well if the AV press is oblivious to having wondered and asked the presenters at the event as to how the Netflix calibrated mode works, I notice this evening that at least a Dolby Vision TV staff engineer at Dolby Laboratories has spoken up on an online professional forum (considering English is obviously not his first language, people should still understand the gist of it, i.e. what is? the actual technology involved with this mode) -



Disclosure: Although prior to joining Dolby Labs, Kyoung previously worked at LG Electronics 10 years ago - https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow...NQkOeyj5dpHqr6 , but I really don’t think he is biased by any legacy LG vs. Sony rivalry and his questioning is purely motivated by engineering curiosity, as is mine.

[Penton-Man]

Also, the demo at the event may well indicate that the Netflix calibrated mode works well with content graded on the BVM-X300 like Lost in Space (https://www.cepro.com/article/new_so..._hdr_earc/news)

but additionally, this brings up the question as to what are the limitations of the Master series TVs with this mode?.....i.e., how accurate are the TVs in displaying Netflix movies having been graded on the 4,000 nit Dolby Pulsar (https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2017/0...ide-your-eyes/) possessing scenes with highlights way above 1,000 nits (Lost in Space was limited to 1,000 nits by Siggy at Co3).

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not ragging on Sony or Netflix as I really admire the working engineers from both companies, but I still can’t get over the fact that none of the invited press questioned/thought of these things.

[Kris Deering]

I wasn't at the press event so I didn't get the full scoop. Sounds like the Netflix mode just ensures the TV is in their preferred mode (no motion interpolation). As for the need to buy a Sony to get the best quality Netflix, that seems obsurd. The calibration for Netflix playback would be absolutely NO different than the calibration for any other SDR or HDR programming. If the CalMan LUT capabilities were restricted to Netflix playback only, that would be another thing completely.

[Robert Zohn]

@Penton-Man, Yes, this was made abundantly clear at Sony's Press Conference. Executives from Netflix, Studio8, Sony Pictures, Sony Professional Broadcast, Joel Silver and others drove this point home very effectively and sincerely.

I posted a picture of the studio execs on a round table discussion speaking to this point.

I also asked Sony's engineers and product managers about the Netflix Certified calibration mode and was told that Netflix picture quality experts worked with Sony to ensure the original images would be as perfectly displayed on Sony's new Master Series Z9F and A9F TV to the consumers homes.

Sony's theme was "lens to home" as they make the leading video cameras used by Hollywood and TV production and the master grading monitors and professional broadcast equipment as well as the new flagship prosumer Master Series TVs that are now tuned at the factory to Netflix calibration specifications.

All very cool and well though-out collaboration of the best of Hollywood creation, post production and prosumer all integrated into Sony's new Master Series TVs.

[Kris Deering]

I'm a fan of films shot with Sony's cameras but I've been to a few Sony demonstrations where they tout a film being end to end Sony equipment and it wasn't. Last year they were all about Spiderman Homecoming and talking about how it was end to end Sony, but it wasn't shot on Sony cameras or HDR graded on Sony displays. Sony LOVES this line of marketing, but they tend to exaggerate a lot.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Robert Zohn

@Penton-Man, Yes, this was made abundantly clear at Sony's Press Conference. Executives from Netflix, Studio8, Sony Pictures, Sony Professional Broadcast, Joel Silver and others drove this point home very effectively and sincerely.

I posted a picture of the studio execs on a round table discussion speaking to this point.....

Well it's not clear to me as I don’t understand. You’re saying you and others did question the presenters regarding how, or even what settings in the displays are changed “to match the studio-monitor setup” (be it BVM-X300 or Dolby Pulsars). Did anyone offer even any rudimentary technical details that addressed this which hasn’t been reported

or, did they answer with vagaries, e.g. 'collaboration' buzzwords? Essentially all I’ve read are testimonials from executives. I think people really want to believe it’s as good as claimed but, testimonials by those with vested interest really doesn’t cut it for discerning videophiles.

I’m far from a Samsung aficionado but I must say the technical information offered during the QLED and HDR10+ Summit last June in Universal City - https://www.displaysummit.com/previo...ollywood-2017/ regarding what is HDR10+ content and how it is graded, mastered and delivered puts testimonials to shame. If you have access, read some of the presentation material for comparison.

P.S.
It’s ironic you mentioned Joel Silver because that slideshare link I posted above is a recommendation letter from him, for Kyoung, the Dolby Laboratories engineer, whom as I mentioned above, is also in need of more information about this calibration mode.

FYI, Kyoung’s experience prior to Dolby -

Principal Engineer : Firmware
Company Name Broadcom
Employment Duration 5 yrs

• Managed all aspects of eMMC firmware engineering working collaboratively with IP engineer, hardware engineer, FAE, customers and eMMC vendors including SK Hynix, Micron, Samsung, SanDisk and Toshiba.

• Tasked with eMMC/SD Card device driver development for bootloader in Linux environment and enabling memory driver development and Broadcom flash tool program used internally & externally.

• Performed IP test, verification and debugging for SDIO.

• Tested 7+ Broadcom platform and about 50% of eMMC v4.5, v5.0 and v5.1 devices of vendors.

• Executed eMMC device PVT verification and debugging with vendors to ensure, establishing an AVL to insure customer satisfaction. Established efficient re-use of PVT testing for internal verification gating mass production release.

• Reviewed the schematic of customer and Broadcom reference board and designed video filter for analog video output.

• Executed test automation for SID (Still Image Decoder).

Principal Engineer : Video System
Broadcom Limited
Dates Employed Mar 2008 – 2012
Employment Duration 4 yrs

• Delivered high standards of customer support globally for video system engineering on 10+ platforms for LG, Sharp, Vizio, Vestel, Samsung, Humax and Philips.

• Worked collaboratively with IP engineer, software engineer, FAE and customers to troubleshoot and deliver support on video system tuning and Broadcom video tool for customers.

• Performed video image signal processing including ADC calibration, analog video decoder, analog video encoder, MPEG digital noise reduction, analog noise reduction, scaler filter, sharpness, FRC, contrast enhancement, color enhancement, color space conversion, color gamut, gamma, and white balance as well as AWB(Auto White Balance) calibration development for display.

Senior Engineer : Video Picture Quality
Company Name LG Electronics
Dates Employed 2005 – Mar 2008
Employment Duration 3 yrs

• Contributed to LG 1st ISF/THX Certified Digital TV (2008 CES main booth in LG) with the world best picture quality by architecturing new video menu and implementing algorithm and software driver for dynamic contrast enhancement, color balance control and color management system.

• Vendor Program Manager of video picture quality for SoC maker LGE, Broadcom, ATI, Mstar and Genesis.

• Managed PDP/LCD TV picture quality tuning from video input such as analog video, HDMI and MPEG to video pipeline and display panel.

• Completed set-up analog video calibration, panel calibration and picture quality assessment for mass production in LG factories globally

Senior Engineer : Hardware
Company Name LG Electronics
Dates Employed Apr 2001 – 2004
Employment Duration 3 yrs

• Contributed to LG 1st HDMI Certified Digital TV by hardware development and assisted in developing HDMI certification center in LG.

• Developed digital board platform for CRT/DLP/PDP/LCD Digital TV to meet company mission of designing a cost-effective board by reducing 30%+ of PCB and new component development.

• Leveraged strong hardware/video engineering knowledge to manage ARM, glue logic (CPLD), ADC, DVI/HDMI, video codec & image processor, analog video encoder, and video tuning.

• Developed ADC calibration driver for TI, ADI, and Mstar.

• Performed set-up of Digital TV mass production in LG factories globally.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

What's the reason behind Netflix's 30 frames per second?

bumpitbaby

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

What's the reason behind Netflix's 30 frames per second?

Because some consumers’ TVs support 30fps 4K HDR rather than 60fps 4K HDR? Thee only thing I find somewhat odd about Netflix is that they routinely make the titles in their HDR content overly bright.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

HDR (HLG/BT.2100) and HFR (100 frames per second, 2160p100) upcoming trials this month - https://tech.ebu.ch/news/2018/07/ebu...ology-partners

100 frames per second!
hmm, I venture PeterTHX would say - ‘that’s means I’ll be able to see with much better clarity soccer players reactions to fouls’

Why make a meal of it for a free kick when you can make a meal of it with a Streetwise 2 for R29.90! - YouTube

I’m really stoked to hear about more ^ HFR trials being performed since the last successful project done by the French with an ice hockey match - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...y#post13461582

And for those unfamiliar with the principle figures in this field, a special tip of the hat to the pioneer Richard Salmon who “inspired and led work within the BBC on higher frame rates, culminating in a very successful demonstrations at IBC in 2008 and 2013” (https://www.smpte.org/sections/unite...-and-future-tv) and being co-author to this milestone paper presented there in ’08 - http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/w...les/WHP169.pdf which we discussed here years ago.

Looks like things are finally, slowly coming to fruition with total next-gen video.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Because some consumers’ TVs support 30fps 4K HDR rather than 60fps 4K HDR? Thee only thing I find somewhat odd about Netflix is that they routinely make the titles in their HDR content overly bright.

24fps would suit all my displays and all the eyes watching those displays.
In the future with 8K/16K I wouldn't mind 240fps.

Thx Penton.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

marketing

until it's proven otherwise, marketing person next year announcing an ‘Amazon calibrated mode’ and/or a ‘Warner Bros. feature films calibrated mode’ or a ‘Sony Pictures calibrated’ mode -



P.S.
I’m especially looking forward to someone with way too much time on their hands generating a Venn diagram as to which brand TVs, support which specific studio content (calibrated, of course) modes in the years to come……..NOT.