HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...you just kinda tune it out after a while.

Without being inebriated I can’t tune this out - just last Sunday yet another example of what we have to endure with degradation of image quality by stadium shadows and SDR transmissions…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwVTCEhD_g#t=2m59s

Live HDR can’t come soon enough for me to watch sports on a Sunday afternoon and relax after a hard morning bike ride with the guys and gals (this girl is welcome to join us whenever she's in town - http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/...-1019405379982 )

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Live HDR can’t come soon enough for me to watch sports on a Sunday afternoon and relax after a hard morning bike ride with the guys and gals (this girl is welcome to join us whenever she's in town - http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/...-1019405379982 )

Truly inspiring!

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

Latest Yoeri Geutskens' diagram:
"The previous Venn diagram suggested everyone supports HDR10. That's not quite accurate. I've added BBC and NHK with #HLG here."



I think it should be improved:
1. Samsung is also supporting HLG
2. Oppo is also supporting HLG
3. Google is supporting HDR10, Dolby Vision & HLG
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...0#post12595355
4. Roku is also supporting Dolby Vision
https://blog.roku.com/blog/2017/05/1...er-this-month/

My latest Multi-HDR TV table:
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...2#post13707182



BTW, are there some inaccuracies?
Thanks

Apparently the 2016 Samsung TVs already support HDR10+ with the latest firmware, according to someone on AVS who is in contact with their engineers. The 2017 TVs support it out of the box.

He also has said that Amazon might release HDR10+ content by the end of this month.

I'm surprised we have no demos of the format online. Samsung should have released the ones used during their QLED/HDR Summit.

[DanBa]

"Samsung will have some significant HDR10+ news at IFA and this is your chance to hear about it first and discuss details with speakers from the symposium or with other experts during the lunch and evening reception demos and networking opportunities.
There is no fee to attend, but attendance is limited. Register NOW to begin the approval process. More information about the event can be found at:
http://www.displaysummit.com/qled-an...t-at-ifa-2017/

. HDR10+ – Beyond HDR10
In this talk, we will present a novel HDR technology called HDR10+ based on the SMPTE 2094-40, where SMPTE 2094-40 fundamentally provides scene by scene dynamic tone mapping metadata for proper tone mapping at a device. It will also be discussed and shown how HDR10+ improves the HDR quality across a variety of consumer display operating points.

. HDR10+ with Next Generation Broadcasting
This presentation provides an overview of ATSC 3.0, its video standard, A/341, and related HDR standards. It shows how HDR10+ is applied to the broadcasting infrastructure, enables tone mapping to displays with various performance levels, and maintains the simplicity needed for real-world deployment.

. HDR10 / HDR10+ SoC for TVs
Sigma Designs, a system on chip supplier in the TV industry, has addressed the first issue by proving a mostly programmable solution capable of supporting HDR10, DolbyVision, HLG, and most recently SMPTE 2094 of which HDR10+ is a subset.
In the presentation we will touch upon the architecture, supporting HDR formats and features of HDR 10+ and the timeline of supporting HDR10+ features with Sigma TV SoC"

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Shalashaska

As someone who doesn't yet own a HDR display, what makes HDR content harder to see in a bright room? I thought it'd be an improvement over SDR.

Also, since you brought it up, what makes HLG different from HDR10/DV when it comes to processing and displaying an image? There must be some compromises as HLG was designed for live broadcasting, but what are they?

I find a lot of the info that's already out there is either much too vague or too technical for moi. I think asking people directly just makes it easier to understand.

Without wanting to speak for Stacey, the thing about HDR is that it's NOT blaring out at thousands of nits all the time. That's what the wider perception of it is, but the reality is about giving the image enough headroom to be able to go into those bright peaks if necessary, so the average picture level - brightness to you and me - of the image is often much nearer SDR levels. "Okay", you might think, "what's wrong with that?". The issue comes from HDR immediately maxing out the backlight (or relevant tech) of X display in order to provide that maximum amount of range, so when an SDR level of luminance occurs within that range there's no scope at the display end for boosting the relative light level of it, e.g. during daytime viewing with a lot of ambient light.

And that's when talking about a display which can ideally do 1000/4000 nit peaks, because if it can't then a degree of tone mapping is involved to fit that range into whatever the TV can handle, and a common side effect is that the APL is lowered yet further ("HDR is too dark!" being a very common complaint, aside from content that has genuinely been mastered a bit darker). Dolby Vision's content derived metadata should allow for much more accurate mapping and for better preservation of APL on low-powered displays, and Panasonic's players now come with an adjustable dynamic range setting so that if you need more luminance during your daytime viewing then you can claw some back.

This is why HDR10/DV (or rather the ST 2084 EOTF at the heart of both) is spoken of as having "absolute" luminance levels, that a piece of content has specific code values for the light levels in any given shot, but HLG is a "relative" luminance system just like conventional SDR so the light level of the content can more easily adapt to what you've set your display's luminance as. The final rendering is left up to the display, rather than the content assuming X set of specifications will be waiting for it at the other end, thus it's an ideal HDR system for general TV broadcast viewing where ambient light levels are usually quite high (either in the daytime or viewed with room lights on at night), and not needing any metadata makes for tidier encoding and transmission too.

I hope that makes some degree of sense, and if I've got anything wrong then hopefully the actual experts will set me right.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

"Samsung will have some significant HDR10+ news at IFA and this is your chance to hear about it first and discuss details with speakers from the symposium or with other experts during the lunch and evening reception demos and networking opportunities.
There is no fee to attend, but attendance is limited. Register NOW to begin the approval process. More information about the event can be found at:
http://www.displaysummit.com/qled-an...t-at-ifa-2017/

. HDR10+ – Beyond HDR10
In this talk, we will present a novel HDR technology called HDR10+ based on the SMPTE 2094-40, where SMPTE 2094-40 fundamentally provides scene by scene dynamic tone mapping metadata for proper tone mapping at a device. It will also be discussed and shown how HDR10+ improves the HDR quality across a variety of consumer display operating points.

. HDR10+ with Next Generation Broadcasting
This presentation provides an overview of ATSC 3.0, its video standard, A/341, and related HDR standards. It shows how HDR10+ is applied to the broadcasting infrastructure, enables tone mapping to displays with various performance levels, and maintains the simplicity needed for real-world deployment.

. HDR10 / HDR10+ SoC for TVs
Sigma Designs, a system on chip supplier in the TV industry, has addressed the first issue by proving a mostly programmable solution capable of supporting HDR10, DolbyVision, HLG, and most recently SMPTE 2094 of which HDR10+ is a subset.
In the presentation we will touch upon the architecture, supporting HDR formats and features of HDR 10+ and the timeline of supporting HDR10+ features with Sigma TV SoC"

Yes, that's what I was referring to. It would have been nice if someone got their hands on that demo and made it available online, or if Samsung themselves would have released it online, so we could test it out.

[Shalashaska]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

[...] so the average picture level - brightness to you and me - of the image is often much nearer SDR levels. "Okay", you might think, "what's wrong with that?". The issue comes from HDR immediately maxing out the backlight (or relevant tech) of X display in order to provide that maximum amount of range, so when an SDR level of luminance occurs within that range there's no scope at the display end for boosting the relative light level of it, e.g. during daytime viewing with a lot of ambient light.

So, in other words, the brighter parts get brighter, but the darker parts get darker? Newton's third law or something.

How is APL measured? If SDR is 0.1 to 100 nits, and the APL (let's just say) is 50 nits, how does HDR have about the same APL? Is it limiting itself to a similar range most of the time and then darkening other parts of the image in scenes that have eye-scorchingly bright highlights?

Originally Posted by Geoff D

[...] and Panasonic's players now come with an adjustable dynamic range setting so that if you need more luminance during your daytime viewing then you can claw some back.

I assume this is done on the fly for darker scenes, right? Because I doubt anyone needs more than 2000-4000 nits peaks on today's TVs.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

This is why HDR10/DV (or rather the ST 2084 EOTF at the heart of both) is spoken of as having "absolute" luminance levels, that a piece of content has specific code values for the light levels in any given shot, but HLG is a "relative" luminance system just like conventional SDR so the light level of the content can more easily adapt to what you've set your display's luminance as. The final rendering is left up to the display, rather than the content assuming X set of specifications will be waiting for it at the other end, thus it's an ideal HDR system for general TV broadcast viewing where ambient light levels are usually quite high (either in the daytime or viewed with room lights on at night), and not needing any metadata makes for tidier encoding and transmission too.

I hope that makes some degree of sense, and if I've got anything wrong then hopefully the actual experts will set me right.

So... HLG is kind of doing its own form of tone/gamut mapping before hitting the display, right? How would this work on SDR displays? Would it limit itself to 100 nits or to the peak of that specific display (mine supposedly hits 550 nits)?

[DanBa]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Yes, that's what I was referring to. It would have been nice if someone got their hands on that demo and made it available online, or if Samsung themselves would have released it online, so we could test it out.

My post is about QLED and HDR10 Summit at IFA 2017 - September 1, 2017, Waldorf Astoria Berlin Hotel, Berlin, Germany.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Shalashaska

So, in other words, the brighter parts get brighter, but the darker parts get darker? Newton's third law or something.

How is APL measured? If SDR is 0.1 to 100 nits, and the APL (let's just say) is 50 nits, how does HDR have about the same APL? Is it limiting itself to a similar range most of the time and then darkening other parts of the image in scenes that have eye-scorchingly bright highlights?



I assume this is done on the fly for darker scenes, right? Because I doubt anyone needs more than 2000-4000 nits peaks on today's TVs.



So... HLG is kind of doing its own form of tone/gamut mapping before hitting the display, right? How would this work on SDR displays? Would it limit itself to 100 nits or to the peak of that specific display (mine supposedly hits 550 nits)?

Look at it this way: just because the container may be 1000 nits or 4000 nits doesn't mean it's always outputting an average of that, there's a separate metadata entry called MaxFALL which details what the maximum frame average light level of the content is. I don't know if you saw HDTVtest's recent ZD9 vs OLED video, but in it Vincent revealed that the MaxCLL (Max content light level, i.e. the absolute brightest peak of the entire presentation) of Goodfellas UHD was a mere 247 nits despite having been mastered in a 4000-nit container. The MaxFALL is usually significantly less than the MaxCLL so you can imagine what it's like for Goodfellas, it's no wonder there was a slew of comments about it being far too dark when it was first released for the reasons I explained in my first post.

The Panasonic range adjustment is not done on the fly, it's a global adjustment to the image done in user-specified increments. I measured what it did and basically it brings up the brightness of the middle portion of the HDR luminance range: if you can imagine ST 2084's curve as tracking like a steep cliff face between dark and light, the Panny's adjustment makes it more like a regular gamma curve by filling in that transition from dark to light.

HLG isn't doing any 'mapping' per se, the reason why it's called Hybrid Log Gamma is that for the first part of the curve it basically apes conventional gamma, so when it's played on a TV that can't display the extended HDR range it will display an image akin to regular SDR (although Stacey is right when he says it can't do SDR as good as actual SDR, it still looks a bit 'off').

[Shalashaska]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Look at it this way: just because the container may be 1000 nits or 4000 nits doesn't mean it's always outputting an average of that, there's a separate metadata entry called MaxFALL which details what the maximum frame average light level of the content is. I don't know if you saw HDTVtest's recent ZD9 vs OLED video, but in it Vincent revealed that the MaxCLL (Max content light level, i.e. the absolute brightest peak of the entire presentation) of Goodefellas UHD was a mere 247 nits despite having been mastered in a 4000-nit container. The MaxFALL is usually significantly less than the MaxCLL so you can imagine what it's like for Goodfellas, it's no wonder there was a slew of comments about it being far too dark when it was first released for the reasons I explained in my first post.

HLG isn't doing any 'mapping' per se, the reason why it's called Hybrid Log Gamma is that for the first part of the curve it basically apes conventional gamma, so when it's played on a TV that can't display the extended HDR range it will display an image akin to regular SDR (although Stacey is right when he says it can't do SDR as good as actual SDR, it still looks a bit 'off').

That's interesting. I'll check that video out.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by DanBa

My post is about QLED and HDR10 Summit at IFA 2017 - September 1, 2017, Waldorf Astoria Berlin Hotel, Berlin, Germany.

Ah, my mistake. I didn't know they were doing another one.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

Ah, my mistake. I didn't know they were doing another one.

Yes. Yet another one! It's very odd that they describe it as "see it here first" when it's now well over a full year since this demo:
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1463138030

And there have been others, including the one in January, as well as Samsung's recent "summit". Each time it's demonstrated and talked about as if it's the first time.

All we want is one little HDR10+ demo clip we can download please, Samsung, to test on our TVs. Just ONE!

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Shalashaska

That's interesting. I'll check that video out.

Probably this one:

Sony ZD9 (Z9D) Review vs 2017 OLED TV - YouTube

Also, on the same topic I'd recommend that you watch these, too. They have graphs showing luminance levels overlaid on the picture and will give you a much better appreciation of what's happening.

technical HDR analysis of "Arrival" 4K Blu-Ray:

Real 4K HDR: Arrival 4K Blu-Ray HDR Review (Chromecast Ultra) - YouTube

technical HDR analysis of "Star Trek Beyond" 4K Blu-Ray:

Real 4K HDR: Star Trek Beyond HDR Review and general HDR information (Chromecast Ultra) - YouTube

[Geoff D]

Excellent videos all ^

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Yes. Yet another one! It's very odd that they describe it as "see it here first" when it's now well over a full year since this demo:
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1463138030

And there have been others, including the one in January, as well as Samsung's recent "summit". Each time it's demonstrated and talked about as if it's the first time.

All we want is one little HDR10+ demo clip we can download please, Samsung, to test on our TVs. Just ONE!

You'd think one of these clips would have found their way online, even if it wasn't from Samsung themselves. They use HDR10+ demos on their new TVs in store, so someone should have gotten their hands on one by now and uploaded it.

[ray0414]

Samsung does not want any of their demos in the hands of consumers. At all.

A popular online website that was hosting alot of Samsung demos, both sdr and hdr, was told recently to take them down or face legal action.

[OI8T12]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Samsung does not want any of their demos in the hands of consumers. At all.

A popular online website that was hosting alot of Samsung demos, both sdr and hdr, was told to take them down or face legal action.

Why? What are they afraid of?

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by ray0414

Samsung does not want any of their demos in the hands of consumers. At all.

A popular online website that was hosting alot of Samsung demos, both sdr and hdr, was told recently to take them down or face legal action.

That's very weird. They've got a bunch of demos on their official YouTube channel (just in HD, however.) zmarty's channel has a few HDR demos too. Anyone can easily download those.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

...HLG isn't doing any 'mapping' per se, the reason why it's called Hybrid Log Gamma is that for the first part of the curve it basically apes conventional gamma, so when it's played on a TV that can't display the extended HDR range it will display an image akin to regular SDR (although Stacey is right when he says it can't do SDR as good as actual SDR, it still looks a bit 'off').

Yes, it’s a compromise, but all things considered….I think a good one. Kind of like if folks can’t view postings in https://www.linkedin.com/groups/5048880/profile,

whose comments come from the likes of Prinyar Boon (Dolby), Alberto (Chairperson - https://show.ibc.org/conference-prog...ec-beyond-hevc ), Charles Poynton, etc., then viewing the HDR Discussion thread of the Blu-ray.com forum is a good alternative.

Anyway, a few HLG summary bullet points….

[Penton-Man]

With regards to other live HDR solutions, I’ll mention that although not entirely metadata-free, Dolby is testing a method to generate dynamic metadata on the fly just before the encoder in real time (with a one frame delay), an approach which adds little complexity/burden to a broadcast plant, as diagrammed –