HDR Discussion Thread

[bruceames]

Well Journey to Space has the first UHD SDR content, having both HDR and SDR encodes on the disc. Will be interesting to compare the difference.

I think that would be a good solution for older catalog as well. Instead of having a regular BD/UHD combo pack, have one disc be the HDR version and the other the SDR version. Then everyone will be happy.

[MattPerdue]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Well Journey to Space has the first UHD SDR content, having both HDR and SDR encodes on the disc. Will be interesting to compare the difference.

I think that would be a good solution for older catalog as well. Instead of having a regular BD/UHD combo pack, have one disc be the HDR version and the other the SDR version. Then everyone will be happy.

Agreed. I'd imagine that's cost-prohibitive which is probably why they don't do it. That and it would probably confuse buyers unaware of all this stuff. If HDR were an On/Off sort of thing I think it'd be even better though I'm not sure something like that is possible.

[kristoffer]

For people with HDR. I understand that the content has much lower brightness output than SDR. Do you notice this?

[pawel86ck]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

For people with HDR. I understand that the content has much lower brightness output than SDR. Do you notice this?

I have included that link in #4 post, here you will find answer to your question
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-vs-201604104279.htm

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by kristoffer

For people with HDR. I understand that the content has much lower brightness output than SDR. Do you notice this?

Not much lower, midtones are similar as explained here with pictorial illustration….
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post12140170

For example, running an analysis on The Lego Movie (blue being HDR, red being SDR)…..

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by pawel86ck

I have included that link in #4 post, here you will find answer to your question
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-vs-201604104279.htm

Not you pawel (nor kristoffer), but generally it’s rather ironic that for a long, long time viewers who’ve proudly considered themselves *videophiles* on just about every home theater enthusiast website in social media have been lecturing other viewers, arguably in a snobbish fashion at times, that the proper (intended) way to watch movies was in nearly complete darkness or with very little ambient light (like is done in mastering facilities with SDR - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...ng#post8865354 )

and all of a sudden, videophiles are now complaining that they won’t be able to watch their HDR Blu-ray movies in “daytime”?

Sheesh!

Quickly scrolling down to the bottom of the article and the conclusion with the quote “For HDR, the industry is considering 5 nits (cd/m2) to be a desirable surround luminance level”

This is true, for those with qualified access, see Table 3 of
http://www.itu.int/md/R15-SG06-C-0039

In fact, 5 nits surround luminance was used as a viewing environment parameter months ago as noted in Contributions (by non celebrity video gururs) to the respective Working Party in ITU to help BBC determine what the best system gamma would shake out for HLG….

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

...determine what the best system gamma would shake out for HLG….

pretty much settling on 1.2 for 1,000 nits

[Penton-Man]

HLG and PQ (SMPTE ST 2084) can and are coexisting at different levels of the production pipeline….. http://www.sony.jp/pro-monitor/produ...erup.html#0427

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

HLG and PQ (SMPTE ST 2084)...

both of which will also be supported (see Features tab here...http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-mon...oduct-PVMX550/) , on its new partner, the PVM-X550….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mja...youtu.be&t=29s

[bruceames]

A representative HDR/SDR graph showing how HDR simply extends the SDR range and doesn't change the range curve. The vast majority of the picture is within the SDR (100 nit) range.

Whatever your peak nit level in your TV, then you can just draw another vertical line there.


Chart is from Light Illusion

[Penton-Man]

I’ve expressed misgivings about other aspects of that Light Illusion white paper which are plainly incorrect or at the minimum, misleading….https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...n#post12107778

but I like the histogram they are using to make their point.

P.S.
Since it's in their neck of the woods it would be nice if they showed up to contribute something original at HPA UK....http://www.hollywoodprofessionalasso...page_id=146605

[Penton-Man]

Although as expressed last March, I’m more of a proponent of ST 2094 Application #1, as previously noted –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post12007747

Here is a visual illustration for Samsung’s 2094 Application regarding the value of dynamic metadata as covered by a member of the press corps at the last NAB….

https://vimeo.com/164619204

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Although as expressed last March, I’m more of a proponent of ST 2094 Application #1, as previously noted –
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...4#post12007747

Here is a visual illustration for Samsung’s 2094 Application regarding the value of dynamic metadata as covered by a member of the press corps at the last NAB….

https://vimeo.com/164619204

Great video sir.

A very important thing to come from that video is that he's been told that samsung tvs will be upgraded via FW to handle dynamic metadata. That certainly gives hope to alot of current hdr tv owners.


Edit: and another question. Will the Samsung 4k blu ray player be able to be apart of that chain with a FW update too?

[MiC. UHD]

Definitely a great video. So forgive my ignorance here, but isn't HDR 10 static and Dolby Vision dynamic? So in other words with this firmware update, we will get Dymanic metadata that I presume will look better than HDR 10?

[bruceames]

So HDR10 dynamic is a thing now? That's great news, but wouldn't that compete with Dolby Vision? He says that Dolby was involved with developing this, can that be right? I thought it was just Phillips and Technicolor.

Also great news if it can be updated via firmware to Samsung players.

[JoeDeM]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So HDR10 dynamic is a thing now? That's great news, but wouldn't that compete with Dolby Vision? He says that Dolby was involved with developing this, can that be right? I thought it was just Phillips and Technicolor.

Also great news if it can be updated via firmware to Samsung players.

Even though Dolby Vision and HDR10 Dynamic become more similar, DV still has the advantage, because it still has the ability to remap to the capabilities of the display (display mapper), where as HDR10 Dynamic, is focused on improving the overall image regardless of the display.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So HDR10 dynamic is a thing now? That's great news, but wouldn't that compete with Dolby Vision? He says that Dolby was involved with developing this, can that be right? I thought it was just Phillips and Technicolor.

Also great news if it can be updated via firmware to Samsung players.

I could be wrong but I think even 2084 HDR is basically a Dolby development at its core, so if they're involved with the nuts and bolts of the signalling of dynamic metadata then it's not a surprise. It's not really about 'competing standards' but putting a standard in place in general that the entire industry can use, then Dolby will branch off and do their own branded thing with their own added special sauce.

It'll be interesting to see if the players (not just Samsung ) can be updated with 2094 in any way and can interpret it at the source level, i.e. to internally produce a dynamic SDR remapped output instead of relying on the player's best guess.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

So HDR10 dynamic is a thing now? That's great news, but wouldn't that compete with Dolby Vision? He says that Dolby was involved with developing this, can that be right? I thought it was just Phillips and Technicolor.

Also great news if it can be updated via firmware to Samsung players.

The dynamic metadata for hdr10 has been submitted for approval and theres no reason it won't pass. Dolby developed hdr in general. The word is if hdr10 does switch to dynamic metadata then the 2 types on calibrated tvs would be almost indistinguishable.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by ray0414

The dynamic metadata for hdr10 has been submitted for approval and theres no reason it won't pass. Dolby developed hdr in general. The word is if hdr10 does switch to dynamic metadata then the 2 types on calibrated tvs would be almost indistinguishable.

Well HDR10 static will be required in any case. It's just a question of which dynamic layer will ride on top. Can't be both DV and HDR10 dynamic, can it?

And if they use HDR10 dynamic instead of DV on discs, will that really be a good thing for people who have DV TVs?

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Well HDR10 static will be required in any case. It's just a question of which dynamic layer will ride on top. Can't be both DV and HDR10 dynamic, can it?

And if they use HDR10 dynamic instead of DV on discs, will that really be a good thing for people who have DV TVs?

Those are good questions and when the time is right in will ask the right people once they become informed on the new standards.

But I'm pretty sure that if samsungs hdr10 tvs can be updated, all other brands can too. So we'll all need to know those answers.