HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

There were a few exceptions FiOS did use HLG....

Would be nice to know if anybody out there in social media land, if not with the same TVs, at least with like-for-like TVs (OLED/OLED or LCD/LCD), did an HLG/HDR10 side-by-side compare of the big game similar to the CBS Lab Demonstrations of HDR10 Display Rendering Variation, here (p.12) - https://www.nctatechnicalpapers.com/...yment-with-hlg

to determine how well that real-time LUT-based conversion worked as compared to native HLG.

[PeterTHX]

I flipped back and forth between the local 720p FOX 11 feed and the 1080p HDR upconverted to 4K on the Roku Ultra Fox Sports app and the app's picture quality was noticeably better than the 720p. A lot less artifacting and much more detail - could see the stubble on Wilford Brimley...I mean Andy Reid's face, and little rips and tears in the field as it was ground up under the players' cleats.

What ticked me off though was the app's sound - limited to DD 2.0
The network broadcast was 5.1. While the 2.0 sounded decend upmixed via Dolby Surround, the imaging on the 5.1 was much better and more realistic. Very annoying.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Some streaming devices did not play well with the 4k upconverted HLG signal even if you happened to have a TV with HLG. Apple TV, for one, didn't get HDR at all due to app compatibility issues.

Apple's continuing hold-out against HLG becomes more idiotic by the day. It's on the level of Samsung's hold-out against Dolby Vision IMHO.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

- could see the stubble on Wilford Brimley...I mean Andy Reid's face,

yep, once during the game my mind drifted there too, alas from a different sport though –

The Natural (2/8) Movie CLIP - A New Right Fielder (1984) HD - YouTube

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

more detail -

for live action sport (meaning not freeze frame replays for video assist reviews, etc., but football players running, or even walking in real-time), someday folks will realize that 1080p/120 fps capture and delivery is clearer than 4K (native or upscaled)/60fps

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Apple's continuing hold-out against HLG becomes more idiotic by the day. It's on the level of Samsung's hold-out against Dolby Vision IMHO.

agreed, and even as a Dolby proponent, I have no misgivings about ubiquitous HLG adoption as Dolby Vision for live broadcast has essentially lost that game to HLG

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

The half time show was the exception where the HDR made a big impact.

Folks shouldn't be surprised at that, as per the heads-up from 2016 -

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

In regards to imaging parameters also keep in mind that music concerts look especially well in HDR (lights, colors)

as that sort of colorful, high intensity content, like for instance, the Carnival in Rio too, is inherently more conducive to especially exploiting the capability of HDR. The industry first became alerted/convinced of this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNUZG90ebyI#t=10m58s

after seeing Sky Perfect footage of the May’n (http://mayn.jp/) concert at one of the trade shows after MIPCOM later that year.

[puddy77]

A nice article on the Superbowl's HDR workflow: https://www.sportsvideo.org/2020/02/...-hdr-workflow/

[JohnAV]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Apple's continuing hold-out against HLG becomes more idiotic by the day. It's on the level of Samsung's hold-out against Dolby Vision IMHO.

Its a bit different. The 4K box came out Sept 2017 and was synced with 4K iTunes streaming, and other apps eventually became 4K HDR10/DV operable. They even deviated from others with using Dolby MAT rather then DD+ for outputting lossy Dolby Atmos.

Now in UK the 4K HLG via iPlayer might be big deal, but in the states its not permitted, so where was the incentive to support HLG?

Apple also wasn't supportive of Googles VP9 either. This might change with Apple part of the Alliance for Open Media against AV1. Drawing comparisons to other vendors SoC's that support HLG might not have been what Apple was after as it seemed they were after being first to support HDR DV capable streaming.

It's likely a question of their CPU/GPU being capable of HLG, or AV1 hardware decoding. That likely mean a update to the ARM silicon to be able to support that.

The HLG support is probably financially linked, that they need something that becomes more commonplace in the states such as ATSC 3.0 content with HLG to be present as a basis to support it.

Long story short, the Sept 2017 product is due for a product refresh, a new ARM at minimum.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

A nice article on the Superbowl's HDR workflow: https://www.sportsvideo.org/2020/02/...-hdr-workflow/

from that ^ - “Drazin looks forward to seeing how HDR will continue to improve the experience for the audience as the tools continue to evolve and creatives are empowered with more latitude to work”

And to move beyond one-off productions like the Super Bowl or TNF and have sporting HDR content become more plentiful, funding is important, which requires special attention – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNUZG90ebyI#t=15m57s <- pearls from 2016, audience laughing aside

flashing forward to last week…..

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

A nice article on the Superbowl's HDR workflow: https://www.sportsvideo.org/2020/02/...-hdr-workflow/

from ^ - “Utilizing two different LUTs to get from SDR to HDR, as well as the 75% anchor point, we can build a cohesive production in both HDR and SDR,” says Drazin”.
So inquiring minds like frogmort may wonder, why 75% anchor point ^.

Well, that reference level (at least for HLG) helps the camera shader ensure that objects placed at the center of interest within a scene are put within the appropriate signal range and that sufficient headroom is reserved for specular highlights as per –

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

inclined to follow ITU-R BT.2408

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

The video quality of the game was slightly better in terms of sharpness. I really did not see much of a difference with the addition of HDR10. The half time show was the exception where the HDR made a big impact. Where I live near Washington, DC the OTA and HD cable quality of the Fox Super Bowl is quite good.

From what I have read on other sites the 4K HDR reviews of the Super Bowel were a mixed bag where some said it was great and some had opinions similar to mine. I guess it was also influenced comparing the 4K HDR to the local OTA and cable picture quality.

So, aside from the half time show , do you know if there is any consensus on the world wide web among respondents who were able to flip back and forth between the SDR and HDR feeds as to whether the HDR made a significant difference for the game itself? Or if not, did any of those Youtube videophile celebrities on the net like Vincent do one of their side-by-side comparisons? as after all, it was a rather BIG event with a worldwide audience.

[Geoff D]

It was a rather BIG event but how were the worldwide 4K HDR broadcasts handled, if any?

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, aside from the half time show , do you know if there is any consensus on the world wide web among respondents who were able to flip back and forth between the SDR and HDR feeds as to whether the HDR made a significant difference for the game itself? Or if not, did any of those Youtube videophile celebrities on the net like Vincent do one of their side-by-side comparisons? as after all, it was a rather BIG event with a worldwide audience.

I didn't do a thorough comparison, but I did switch to the SDR feed briefly, and the HDR made a pretty significant difference. The contrast, luminance of the highlights, skin tones, and colors, were all much better on the HDR feed. It was instantly noticeable, and everyone I had over (none were videophiles) said the exact same thing.

Also, although the HDR stream on the Fox Sports app still had compression artifacts, they were much less pronounced than on the TV broadcast.

Hopefully we see a lot more HDR broadcasts in the near future.

[PaulGo]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

So, aside from the half time show , do you know if there is any consensus on the world wide web among respondents who were able to flip back and forth between the SDR and HDR feeds as to whether the HDR made a significant difference for the game itself? Or if not, did any of those Youtube videophile celebrities on the net like Vincent do one of their side-by-side comparisons? as after all, it was a rather BIG event with a worldwide audience.

There are so many variables that it is hard to reach a conclusion. A major variable is the quality of the broadcast signal. I have Comcast but I also looked at the OTA signal quality from Washington DC channel 5 which was quite good. If viewers had a poor broadcast signal quality because it was over compressed due to channel sharing then they would notice a significant difference between the UHD and the HD quality. With HDR again there are so many variable on how viewers set up the HD picture quality and the quality of the TVs ability to produce HDR in terms of color spectrum and brightness.

Another factor is the perception that UHD and HDR has to make the picture quality better so it must be better.

Depending on the source of the UHD signal some viewers said the HDR picture was too dark but most said it was good. Several noticed greater brightness. Almost all that mentioned the half time show said it looked very good. So Penton what did you think of the picture quality?

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

There are so many variables that it is hard to reach a conclusion. A major variable is the quality of the broadcast signal. I have Comcast but I also looked at the OTA signal quality from Washington DC channel 5 which was quite good. If viewers had a poor broadcast signal quality because it was over compressed due to channel sharing then they would notice a significant difference between the UHD and the HD quality. With HDR again there are so many variable on how viewers set up the HD picture quality and the quality of the TVs ability to produce HDR in terms of color spectrum and brightness.

Another factor is the perception that UHD and HDR has to make the picture quality better so it must be better.

Depending on the source of the UHD signal some viewers said the HDR picture was too dark but most said it was good. Several noticed greater brightness. Almost all that mentioned the half time show said it looked very good. So Penton what did you think of the picture quality?

I can't imagine how anyone thought anything other than the commercials looked too dark. The gameplay was plenty bright.

It likely has to do with what kind of set they were viewing it on.

[PaulGo]

Some people using the Amazon Firestick mentioned this while other said it was OK. There are so many variables. Hopefully by the time of the summer Olympics things wiil be better.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

....So Penton what did you think of the picture quality?

Well.....
Away from home I watched the HDR feed (solely, no SDR, so can’t compare) vis-à-vis FiOS and it looked mighty fine; however, I was a bit intoxicated before and all during the game – not quite as much as Billy, for nobody left me and I wasn’t suffering any heartbreak –

Neal Mccoy Billy's Got His Beer Goggles On - YouTube

but still, everything yesterday looked (and sounded, including the voice overs in the Top Gun: Maverick Big Game trailer) mighty fine to me so I really have to disqualify myself from offering any broadcast quality assessment. You don't know how I struggled to even post those pics during half time. Also wanted to hear Geoff’s or other UKers opinion from across the pond as I think he abstains from alcohol and it was historic, even ballsy by J. Lo -

Patrick Mahomes is youngest Super Bowl MVP ever l ABC News - YouTube

[LordoftheRings]

I'm still hangover with those four poles (@ each end of the field).

Who's that guy in a blue suit behind the quarterback (2nd video of course)? ...Bounty hunter, hitman, CIA, bouncer, FBI, bodyguard?

[BrownianMotion]

Originally Posted by PaulGo

Some people using the Amazon Firestick mentioned this while other said it was OK. There are so many variables. Hopefully by the time of the summer Olympics things wiil be better.

I watched on the Fire stick and thought it looked great. Like I said, the commercials were the only part that looked dark. The actual game was superb.