Large Format/"Premium" Theaters (IMAX 15/70, Digital IMAX, XD, ETX, RPX, etc.)

[Fang Zei]

Originally Posted by xbs2034

Wouldn’t 4DX and ScreenX require their own files, though I think they use the base DCP file (at least for 4DX, not sure with Screen X) and add their own stuff onto it. But yeah, while IMAX and Dolby are custom, chains do their own premium large format screens are just using the regular DCP.

I wasn’t even remembering 4DX and ScreenX tbh

But yeah, 4DX would still use the normal 3D dcp.

[Riddhi2011]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

something that bugged me with IW was how certain scenes looked a little 'stretched', that people looked a fraction too tall and thin. It's one of the perils of working with anamorphic if you don't desqueeze it properly, and I got a hell of a lot more of that same feeling in Endgame.

I think they just squeezed the image inwards in the DI a bit to reduce the horizontal cropping to a minimum, without affecting the facial geometry too much.

MI-RN Trailer Film look original copy.jpg

MI-RN Trailer Film look original squeezed copy.jpg

The bottom image has been squeezed inwards and the face appears longer (and more natural) than the original image (on top).

[Riddhi2011]

Originally Posted by Fang Zei

How many “bespoke” dcp formats are we up to now?

-Imax xenon
-Imax laser (presumably projector-agnostic i.e. same 1.90:1 file could be played on either the dual projector setup or the new two-in-one build at the same optimized quality? Although I’m guessing movies with 1.44:1 material would need to be further custom-delivered)
-Dolby Cinema

Is that it for now?

These other “premium large format” venues like RPX, Prime, XD, whatever Alamo calls theirs, and this new one THX is cooking up ... those would all still only be using the same ‘ol same ‘ol regular dci-compliant dcp as any normal theater, right?

Only the IMAX version will look different because they can change the aspect ratio. Everywhere else, it's going to be the same framing. Yes, the image and sound mastering varies between Dolby Cinema and IMAX, but the larger aspect ratio on IMAX screens is the attraction here. I think Dolby Cinema should make a VistaVision like 16:10 screen brand and offer expanded ARs of movies like IMAX does. It'll be like IMAX with Dolby Atmos audio. Then it'll be a fair competition.

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by xbs2034

Disney is never going to be the go to for immersive sound mixes, and I found Endgame’s IMAX sound perfectly fine, but rarely impressive.

Blade Runner: Final Cut, Bohemian Rhapsody, and Overlord are the types of films I think of which show off how great the 12 Channel IMAX system can be.

I know that Warner's had created new DCP's from the 4K restoration/transfer of 'Blade Runner: Final Cut' to Dolby Atmos, but I had no idea that they had also culled a 12-channel mix for IMAX - that's impressive.

as to Avengers: Endgame, I just saw this down at the Lockheed Martin A&S museum on it's IMAX-laser/12-channel setup and it easily trumped the new laser install/sound system over at AMC Tyson's - I was tad more over to the left and center than where I was earlier in the week and I was more aware and hearing audio cues that I hadn't heard at Tysons. The swooshing down of superheroes down into a scene came from the upper channels was by far the most impressive audio mixing in my mind.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Riddhi2011

I think they just squeezed the image inwards in the DI a bit to reduce the horizontal cropping to a minimum, without affecting the facial geometry too much.

The bottom image has been squeezed inwards and the face appears longer (and more natural) than the original image (on top).

That's ^ with 2x anamorphic glass though, they lenses they used for capturing anamorphic on large format have a much gentler 'squeeze' and nothing like the sort of 'mumps' that have historically affected 2x anamorphic on 35mm. I think my theater's screening was off, I'm gonna try and get another theatrical viewing at a different venue if I can.

[Fang Zei]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's ^ with 2x anamorphic glass though, they lenses they used for capturing anamorphic on large format have a much gentler 'squeeze' and nothing like the sort of 'mumps' that have historically affected 2x anamorphic on 35mm. I think my theater's screening was off, I'm gonna try and get another theatrical viewing at a different venue if I can.

I saw Endgame here at the Uptown on its deeply curved Cinerama screen, so all bets were off!

[Geoff D]

Heh

[rwc]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

(As an aside - which I'll post here as it'll just get lost instantly in pretty much any other Endgame thread - something that bugged me with IW was how certain scenes looked a little 'stretched', that people looked a fraction too tall and thin. It's one of the perils of working with anamorphic if you don't desqueeze it properly, and I got a hell of a lot more of that same feeling in Endgame. It didn't 'wreck' the movie in any way, it's just one of the many things that Geoffy sees that no-one else does )

Originally Posted by UFAlien

I noticed it too, but only really when said characters weren't in the center of the frame. I assume it's an artifact of the lenses. Maybe they were literally using the old Ultra Panatars from the 50s and 60s for some shots? Or the new ones were built to have a "vintage" look with some of those issues.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

To my eyes it's more than just the periphery of the frame, even people in the centre look a fraction 'stretched' here and there. Besides, the actual image being recorded is about 2.65:1 when desqueezed (1.25x on the 2.11 open gate Alexa 65 sensor) and what we're seeing is a centre 'punch in' on that to 1.90, from which the 2.39 'scope is then extracted, so any of those kinds of artefacts at the extreme edge of the frame - which TBH were most chronic on the kind of cheap wide angle 2x ana glass used in european and hong kong movies decades ago - are actually being cropped out.

As for these Ultra Panatar lenses, they're completely new designs but with the appropriate UP70 squeeze and coverage of the large format image circle. Trent Opaloch didn't want the actual retro glass (which itself was extensively refurbished) as used on Hateful 8 and Rogue One. This set was so new that they didn't have a full complement of them for the start of production on IW/Endgame.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I think my theater's screening was off, I'm gonna try and get another theatrical viewing at a different venue if I can.

Originally Posted by Fang Zei

I saw Endgame here at the Uptown on its deeply curved Cinerama screen, so all bets were off!

I had exactly the same issue as you Geoff in Geneva in IMAX 3D, and like UFAlien particularly when characters weren't in centre frame. It took me out of the film, and by surprise, first time that's happened. There was a moment when Chris Evans' face was so squeezed thin as he was speaking (left of frame) I was looking around at others wondering if they were noticing it. Couldn't tell whether it was a projection, screen or source error, but it ain't right and I've never noticed it in that same room before (having been a dozen times for IMAX 3D)...

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by Fang Zei

I saw Endgame here at the Uptown on its deeply curved Cinerama screen, so all bets were off!

the Uptown theater as in, Washington DC?

[Mike0284]

[benji888578]

Originally Posted by Mike0284

[Show spoiler]

Whaaat? I’d much rather have seen this than the Godzilla clip I saw

[erixon20]

Originally Posted by Mike0284

Good, I can see this on monday!

[benji888578]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Just got back from the regular rinky-dink 2K chain cinema I try and visit if I can, and the 'scope framing on Endgame didn't bother me for a second. IW, yes, that opening scene looks weirdly cramped while the rest I thought was fine, but this time around it was framed up noice in 'scope.

(As an aside - which I'll post here as it'll just get lost instantly in pretty much any other Endgame thread - something that bugged me with IW was how certain scenes looked a little 'stretched', that people looked a fraction too tall and thin. It's one of the perils of working with anamorphic if you don't desqueeze it properly, and I got a hell of a lot more of that same feeling in Endgame. It didn't 'wreck' the movie in any way, it's just one of the many things that Geoffy sees that no-one else does )

Well, I sat closer than I ever have at my IMAX, but I thought it looked odd, people’s faces looked too rounded, but, it may have just been too close for 3D there ...if I go see it again I will sit where I usually do and pay closer attention. Edit: the IMAX I go to was designed to IMAX specs and has a fairly deep curve to it, maybe it’s just how it looks when that close.

[testmon112]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

That's ^ with 2x anamorphic glass though, they lenses they used for capturing anamorphic on large format have a much gentler 'squeeze' and nothing like the sort of 'mumps' that have historically affected 2x anamorphic on 35mm. I think my theater's screening was off, I'm gonna try and get another theatrical viewing at a different venue if I can.

That also what happens when you rehouse/manipulate older anamorphic lenses. The distortion rarely happens with most modern anamorphic glass, so when you desequeeze in post it usually end's up with a nicely sized image. Take this shot of Captain Marvel for instance. Trent Opaloch, has done his best to get rid of most stuff, but even Greig Fraser said when he got the Panavision Panatar set for Rogue One, they weren't in good shape and he had to fix them up there too.




When watching Endgame in 2d scope, I rarely found any out rightly bad distortion except maybe on some wider shots of the cast in Avengers HQ, but it's common wider angle anamorphic glass.

[Dreamliner330]

Originally Posted by Mike0284

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by benji888578

Whaaat? I’d much rather have seen this than the Godzilla clip I saw

Just got out of Endgame IMAX 3D again, they played this AND the Godzilla clip AND a trailer for Dark Phoenix...

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by testmon112

That also what happens when you rehouse/manipulate older anamorphic lenses. The distortion rarely happens with most modern anamorphic glass, so when you desequeeze in post it usually end's up with a nicely sized image. Take this shot of Captain Marvel for instance. Trent Opaloch, has done his best to get rid of most stuff, but even Greig Fraser said when he got the Panavision Panatar set for Rogue One, they weren't in good shape and he had to fix them up there too.

And yet given that they're finishing them up digitally then why not correct whatever the lens is doing, if it's doing it wrong? The lenses created for IW/EG weren't just the old lenses rehoused but brand new glass apparently, so they really shouldn't have any of this kind of 'stretching' as they've been built from scratch. It's funny but Opaloch talks of the lenses having a "1.3x" squeeze rather than the 1.25x that they actually have, could this simply be a case of them applying a slightly wrong desqueeze in post? This is why I mentioned "the perils of anamorphic" before, it's not just what it does in-camera but what they do with the image afterwards where they have to be careful.

One such example that's long stuck in my mind is from X-Men 1 near the end, when Logan is holding the lifeless body of Rogue and then she suddenly starts to draw power from him, as Jackman reacts the shot looks a touch too narrow and it's got nothing to do with the glass or the angle, it's just not been desqueezed properly.

[xbs2034]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner330

Just got out of Endgame IMAX 3D again, they played this AND the Godzilla clip AND a trailer for Dark Phoenix...

That’s exactly how it was when I saw Endgame last Friday. Dark Phoenix special look, DP regular trailer (which felt a bit redundant), Godzilla IMAX extended trailer (which I also got with Hellboy and Curse of La Llorona), then Infinite Worlds IMAX intro, and 3D trailers for Gemini Man (looked awesome in IMAX laser 3D), Lion King, and Rise of Skywalker.

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by xbs2034

That’s exactly how it was when I saw Endgame last Friday. Dark Phoenix special look, DP regular trailer (which felt a bit redundant), Godzilla IMAX extended trailer (which I also got with Hellboy and Curse of La Llorona), then Infinite Worlds IMAX intro, and 3D trailers for Gemini Man (looked awesome in IMAX laser 3D), Lion King, and Rise of Skywalker.

fortunately or unfortunately depending on your take on a movie that's already some three hours in length, Air and Space Museum's presentation only had the 'Dark Phoenix' trailer (which looked spectacular) and then straight into the movie - that was a positive in my book.

[Fang Zei]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

the Uptown theater as in, Washington DC?

Indeed.

Through a very unexpected series of events, I ended up seeing the opening (Friday) night 7pm show, which was in 2D.

The only MCU movies I’ve seen in Imax are Captain America: Civil War (specifically for the airport scene) and Captain Marvel. The former was xenon 2D and the latter was laser 2D.

Once that first trailer for Infinity War dropped and I saw fat ovals everywhere, the whole “shot entirely in Imax” thing we’d been promised two and a half years earlier suddenly felt a little misleading. The airport scene in CW used spherical optics, and I’d assumed Avengers 3/4 would simply look like that. But the Russos obviously love the anamorphic look, and to be fair I can see why they wanted something with a little more character. It just made seeing it in Imax seem a little less appealing, and I ended up seeing IW Saturday night of opening weekend at Tysons at a normal 2D screening.

[Dreamliner330]

Originally Posted by xbs2034

That’s exactly how it was when I saw Endgame last Friday. Dark Phoenix special look, DP regular trailer (which felt a bit redundant), Godzilla IMAX extended trailer (which I also got with Hellboy and Curse of La Llorona), then Infinite Worlds IMAX intro, and 3D trailers for Gemini Man (looked awesome in IMAX laser 3D), Lion King, and Rise of Skywalker.

Exactly the same. AMC probably plays the same everywhere. I thought Gemini Man looked TERRIBLE. First the story seems very dumb and entirely given up in the trailer. The meet then eventually team up to take down the company...

Some of that Infinite World looks cheesy but that Space Into is awesome. The silence is deafening.

Originally Posted by Dubstar

fortunately or unfortunately depending on your take on a movie that's already some three hours in length, Air and Space Museum's presentation only had the 'Dark Phoenix' trailer (which looked spectacular) and then straight into the movie - that was a positive in my book.

My local AMC is run by absolute buffoons. Often they'll forget to play the movie at showtime and sometimes I walk in with the florescent lights on. When this happens they are not even playing the preshow (thankfully). I wait until about 10 AFTER the show start time and then call the front desk of the theater and let them know they forgot to play the movie and they usually skip all the trailers and it starts playing the movie immediately. Complete silence to movie starting. Beautiful.

On a side note, local theaters should really have a text line for theater issues so you don't have to leave the room...