List of UHDs that contain HDR10+

[Staying Salty]

Originally Posted by Leterface

...but I have not seen (or miss noticed) any proof that the metadata had made like a night-and-day difference to PQ?

HDR10:

[Show spoiler]moon.jpg

Dolby Vision:

[Show spoiler]sun.jpg

[Show spoiler]Just kidding. The difference is subtle as you have noted. And is sooooo dependent on the Display.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Leterface

I have the same questions regarding Dolby Vision vs HDR10 - or maby I have just miss noticed if Dolby Vision material have actually shown to be more as intended originally than plain HDR10? I have seen proof of DV improving the PQ but I have not seen (or miss noticed) any proof that the metadata had made like a night-and-day difference to PQ?

One has to remember. HDR10 is literally a format that was the most bare bones usable solution that Dolby would provide for the industry at no charge. It only exists because Dolby gave it away. It is the bare minimum, but it still does a good job with the right circumstances depending on the display. It leaves a LOT of room for error or guess work for the end user and display to figure out to make the most of the content once it exceeds the absolute capabilities of the display itself.

A perfect example of this is BR2049. This is a title that's peak level is in the 400 nit range with more the 99% of all frames being below about 210 nits. If HDR was implemented properly on all displays, this title should look IDENTICAL on all the displays (with the exception of the display's contrast ratio capabilities). Tone mapping shouldn't even be a thought for a flat panel with HDR, I don't know of any that would have any issues with content this low. And with PQ being absolute, it should be the same brightness over all displays. But we see lots of people complaining about it because of what their display did or didn't do with the title and its metadata.

You could apply the same logic to most of the titles on the market today because so few of them even approach 1000 nits, and those that do are tiny areas of the picture that shouldn't be a big deal. A brighter display will have much better color performance though as the color volume of that display will be higher.

[jibucha]

Dolby Vision :: it's my understanding, that it takes significantly longer in the grading/mastering/post production process(s), as optionally, the director/studio are 'more involved' with the tools at hand, to maintain consistency of their 'creative intent' throughout (from, scene-by-scene to frame-by-frame, adjustments, etc)

HDR10 :: it's my understanding, that in stark contrast, is a far more 'fundamental approach' of a 'computer analysis/pass' (without the involvement of human evaluation - especially, the director/studio), taking just a few hours rather than days-to-weeks, representing a 'baseline performance' that i personally do not appreciate (rather strongly)

so, with Dolby Vision, definitely, the 'original intent' is presented as otherwise impossible :: Dolby Vision is essentially 'as good as the director/studio want it to be' which without it, has previously not been possible (there's a reason behind the support of Hollywood of Dolby (Dolby Cinema/Dolby Vision, etc) and from what i have seen at home, very obvious and engaging, for myself at least

regarding your point of ("but I have not seen (or miss noticed) any proof that the metadata had made like a night-and-day difference to PQ?"), that's entirely up to your judgment of your viewing experiences; don't you agree?

perhaps (for you) :: the difference is without merit, which is fine, if that is your conclusion of your viewing experiences (i strongly believe, that what you see, and whatever your conclusions are, are entirely subjective and should be accepted by yourself, or by extension, me)

my personal viewing experiences :: which primarily matter to myself alone, are that the differences of HDR10 and Dolby Vision are substantial, to the extent that i primarily purchase UHD/Dolby Vision (especially recently) and suffer when my 'only choice' is UHD/HDR10 titles, which i do primarily for the 'non-HDR' improvements (color/contrast/resolution), as without individual picture adjustments - per movie - i simply am unable (personally) to tolerate HDR10

to be clear :: i would rather UHD without HDR at all, than UHD/HDR10, personally finding that of all the UHD improvements, it's HDR that i can do without, unless it's UHD/Dolby Vision

Originally Posted by Leterface

I have the same questions regarding Dolby Vision vs HDR10 - or maby I have just miss noticed if Dolby Vision material have actually shown to be more as intended originally than plain HDR10? I have seen proof of DV improving the PQ but I have not seen (or miss noticed) any proof that the metadata had made like a night-and-day difference to PQ?

[TitusTroy]

Originally Posted by jibucha

my personal viewing experiences :: which primarily matter to myself alone, are that the differences of HDR10 and Dolby Vision are substantial, to the extent that i primarily purchase UHD/Dolby Vision (especially recently) and suffer when my 'only choice' is UHD/HDR10 titles, which i do primarily for the 'non-HDR' improvements (color/contrast/resolution), as without individual picture adjustments - per movie - i simply am unable (personally) to tolerate HDR10

to be clear :: i would rather UHD without HDR at all, than UHD/HDR10, personally finding that of all the UHD improvements, it's HDR that i can do without, unless it's UHD/Dolby Vision

I disagree with that...while I prefer Dolby Vision I wouldn't say that the difference in the movies I've seen are what I would call 'substantial'...DV is more refined and the changes are subtle but noticable...I haven't seen a movie where HDR10 looked awful and DV made it look amazing...in a blind 'taste test' I wonder if most people would be able to tell which movies uses HDR10 and which uses Dolby Vision

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

There is also a third solution being used, displays that use the metadata in HDR10 to try to intelligently tone map. This means that they actually use the metadata to make an intelligent decision on what the peak value and such should be. This solution will only be as good as the metadata, which is frequently wrong or generic (a copy of the mastering display properties).

is this the method that LG uses in their displays?

[jibucha]

ok (no argument from me) - (we 'see things differently' & 'think differently' - which is fine)

blind test?

• not a problem for myself; as i find the differences substantial and would expect to be able to easily recognize Dolby Vision/HDR10 differences (read :: content)
• most people? :: defiantly not, from my reading of many posts through the years (seemingly, the differences are elusive, at best)
• why? (differing viewing experiences?) :: i have considerable thoughts about why, but prefer to keep this both simple and focused

Originally Posted by TitusTroy

I disagree with that...while I prefer Dolby Vision I wouldn't say that the difference in the movies I've seen are what I would call 'substantial'...DV is more refined and the changes are subtle but noticable...I haven't seen a movie where HDR10 looked awful and DV made it look amazing...in a blind 'taste test' I wonder if most people would be able to tell which movies uses HDR10 and which uses Dolby Vision

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by jibucha

my personal viewing experiences :: which primarily matter to myself alone, are that the differences of HDR10 and Dolby Vision are substantial, to the extent that i primarily purchase UHD/Dolby Vision (especially recently) and suffer when my 'only choice' is UHD/HDR10 titles, which i do primarily for the 'non-HDR' improvements (color/contrast/resolution), as without individual picture adjustments - per movie - i simply am unable (personally) to tolerate HDR10

to be clear :: i would rather UHD without HDR at all, than UHD/HDR10, personally finding that of all the UHD improvements, it's HDR that i can do without, unless it's UHD/Dolby Vision

What? The best UHD discs on the market are made by Sony that uses ONLY HDR10 95% of the time..... Explain that..... LOL

[KubrickKurasawa]

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

[/B]
What? The best UHD discs on the market are made by Sony that uses ONLY HDR10 95% of the time..... Explain that..... LOL

Yeah it's funny. Uhm I like my Lionsgate = John Wick 2, Summit = Hackswa Ridge, 20th Cent Fox = The Revenant, Paramount = Transformers WB = Batman VS. Superman Lionsgate = American Psycho in HDR. Sony is fine too The Shallows. etc.

I think it's marketing for LG and Vizio. And now Samsung and Panasonic want to play along too. It's just a what team are you on kind of thing.

As long as we get a better standard down the line they can do whatever floats their boat. Lol

[Scarabaeus]

Originally Posted by jibucha

Dolby Vision :: it's my understanding, that it takes significantly longer in the grading/mastering/post production process(s), as optionally, the director/studio are 'more involved' with the tools at hand, to maintain consistency of their 'creative intent' throughout (from, scene-by-scene to frame-by-frame, adjustments, etc)

HDR10 :: it's my understanding, that in stark contrast, is a far more 'fundamental approach' of a 'computer analysis/pass', taking just a few hours rather than days-to-weeks, representing a 'baseline performance' that i personally do not appreciate (rather strongly)

Well, yes.

Dolby Vision metadata is created by automatic analysis of PQ color volume, with (optional) additional input by humans to achieve creative intent.

HDR10+ metadata is created by automatic analysis of RGB luminance range. That's it.

All you have to do is look at the metadata described for both formats, in CTA-861-G, Annex R (SMPTE 2094-10, equivalent of Dolby Vision) and Annex S (SMPTE 2094-40, equivalent of HDR10+):

https://standards.cta.tech/kwspub/pu...vised_2017.pdf

[Geoff D]

Yep, Dolby Vision's first metadata pass is automated too. The underlying HDR grade has little to do with 'Dolby Vision' as a technological system because the source grading is done FIRST, typically in D65P3 and the ST2084 EOTF using whatever tools (lift/gamma/gain etc) to shape the image how the talent and colourist sees fit...just like HDR10, albeit in 12-bit for DV in order to be ingested into the metadata mastering workflow (though one wonders how that even works when it comes to the myriad of existing 10-bit DI sources that have been given 12-bit DV passes). THEN the Level 1 DV metadata pass is run off and can be trimmed using the Level 2 controls at whatever output levels are required e.g. 100-nit, 600-nit, 1000-nit and so on.

[jibucha]

ok :: picture quality :: 'it's in the eyes of the viewer' and 'whatever appreciation'

HDR10 :: if you like it so much; that's fine (personally, i do not) :: we 'definitely have a differing appreciation' which is fine :: ok?

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

[/B]
What? The best UHD discs on the market are made by Sony that uses ONLY HDR10 95% of the time..... Explain that..... LOL

[jibucha]

no (at least according to my most recent information regarding how LG implements Active HDR)

'my information' is that they 'entirely bypass the metadata' due to the inconsistencies as outlined by Kris Deering here:

=============================================

is this the method that LG uses in their displays?

Originally Posted by Kris Deering
There is also a third solution being used, displays that use the metadata in HDR10 to try to intelligently tone map. This means that they actually use the metadata to make an intelligent decision on what the peak value and such should be. This solution will only be as good as the metadata, which is frequently wrong or generic (a copy of the mastering display properties).

[jibucha]

unbelievable

• your information/statement, could not be more inaccurate/mis-leading
• "with a few Kb/s for metadata ('you cant be serious'?)
• "nothing more" & "exactly like" :: - 'quite a stretch/mis-representation'?
• seems to me, that you're involved in some 'serious free-wheeling' with ????

Originally Posted by MisterXDTV

Can't you write posts in a normal way?

Again, as I said: Warner and Sony use Dolby Vision exactly like they would use HDR10+. With a few Kb/s for metadata.... Nothing more....

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by jibucha

unbelievable

• your information/statement, could not be more inaccurate/mis-leading
• "with a few Kb/s for metadata ('you cant be serious'?)
• "nothing more" & "exactly like" :: - 'quite a stretch/mis-representation'?
• seems to me, that you're involved in some 'serious free-wheeling' with ????

Have fun looking at the Dolby Vision logo on the back cover

What i wrote are just facts. Warner and Sony use a metadata-only layer for Dolby Vision, just READ one disc scan maybe

Sony doesn't even use DV most of the time and makes the best discs on the market by far for picture quality... Therefore DV is not as important as you think, not at all....

But you care more about the Dolby Vision logo than the actual content on the disc. As I said, have fun....

[TitusTroy]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

b


j


w

in a few days the first HDR10+ discs will be released so we should be getting a better idea of how they fare

why is Bad Times at the El Royale on that list?...it shows as being standard HDR10

[King Crimson]

Wait, wait so the DV on UHD is 10 bit not 12 bit?

[MisterXDTV]

Originally Posted by King Crimson

Wait, wait so the DV on UHD is 10 bit not 12 bit?

Not all discs, just Warner and Sony ones with DV.

[bradipolpo]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

New:

Since there is no confirmation, we must assume this won't be HDR10+.....

[Pieter V]

Since you all want proofs, here's a double confirmation:



I can also tell you that The Hate U Give (2018) and Bohemian Rhapsody (2018) are in the pipeline as well.

[MisterXDTV]

I'm curious to see whether Warner will start using HDR10+ in 2019. Maybe we will know more at CES in a few weeks. Maybe Disney as well....

[avs commenter]

Disney has a deal with Dolby Cinema. Not sure why they stopped putting DV on discs, but all their 4K titles have DV on digital at least. I don't think any Fox titles even have DV on digital.