List of UHDs that contain HDR10+

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by agent kay

100%.

You may not care for some of its technical issues, but when it’s working correctly, it can provide picture fidelity benefits that the other consumer formats cannot- that’s just a matter of fact.

[Agent Kay]

It's not a fact it's opinion.
And "when its working" that tells you all you need to know.

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by Agent Kay

It's not a fact it's opinion.

12 bits allows more fidelity to the source than 10 bits does is not an opinion.

[DJR662]

But can/do you actually really see a significant improvement when compared to HDR10 though and in what kind of way? Or is it more a case where DV can assist in helping reduce certain issues that any disc may have while playing it in HDR10?

I'm asking this because I can get the new Sony X800 M2 for a pretty good deal and I was thinking of giving it a shot just for DV.

[sapiendut]

I wouldn’t say significant, but it’s clearly visible on most DV titles.

[KubrickKurasawa]

Marketing hype. Believe it!!

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by DJR662

But can/do you actually really see a significant improvement when compared to HDR10 though and in what kind of way? Or is it more a case where DV can assist in helping reduce certain issues that any disc may have while playing it in HDR10?

I'm asking this because I can get the new Sony X800 M2 for a pretty good deal and I was thinking of giving it a shot just for DV.

Aside from the improvements in tone mapping - which even the mighty ZD9 can benefit from in extreme cases, as we discussed - I don't think that there's a drastic difference between the actual HDR10 and DV grades at source level, particularly when the base layer is encoded at 4000 nits anyway. There is, however, an exception: Paramount's UHD of Annihilation which has an extremely black crushed base layer while the DV brings back the proper shadow detail.

However, I've still come to use DV more often than not because of how it has drastically improved the compression on some titles. Now whether the actual DV encoding process has knackered the HDR10 layer is up for debate (hi mike), but I find Saving Private Ryan to be unwatchable, literally unwatchable, in HDR10 while the DV improves it greatly. Ditto for several of StudioCanal's UHD titles, although their HDR10-only Rambos prove that they can encode HDR10 just as badly on a standalone disc as on a DV disc.

People aks how such voodoo is done and it's because of how the (full) enhancement layer rebuilds the image. Don't take my word for it, as Actual Professional™ Stacey Spears explained it in the HDR Discussion thread: the (full) enhancement layer is the result of comparing the final compressed HDR10 encode to the DV source master, so it does its best to replicate what it finds in there, be it differences in grading (as with the aforementioned black levels, or that the DV layer can contain >1000 nit information if the HDR10 layer has been capped at 1000 nits) or rescuing terribad compression.

These are things that HDR10+ is simply not capable of doing, though one could of course argue that if something was compressed properly in the first place then it wouldn't need DV to act as a firefighter in dousing them blocky-assed flames...

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by KubrickKurasawa

Marketing hype. Believe it!!

hdr10+ makes a big difference on lower nit displays, but zero difference on displays 1000+nits. Stacey Spears exact words

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by ray0414

hdr10+ makes a big difference on lower nit displays, but zero difference on displays 1000+nits. Stacey Spears exact words

So, it's mostly a bunch of BS by Samsung in order to exact licensing fees.



At least with some DV content you do get 12 bit encoding rather than 10 bit. HDR10+ is strictly dynamic metadata. Nothing else.

[ShePearl]

From the looks of it, HDR10+ seems quite similar to Dolby Vision Profile 5 (single layer) and Dolby Vision Profile 7 (dual layer) with MEL (Minimal Enhancement Layer).
DV with FEL is quite a different animal.

[slimdude]

Originally Posted by ShePearl

From the looks of it, HDR10+ seems quite similar to Dolby Vision Profile 5 (single layer) and Dolby Vision Profile 7 (dual layer) with MEL (Minimal Enhancement Layer).
DV with FEL is quite a different animal.

Actually HDR10+ is strictly a ripoff of Dolby Vision from Samsung, who didn't want to implement Dolby Vison on their TVs, so they've blatantly carboned copied Dolby Vision technology, and called it their own.

[ray0414]

Originally Posted by slimdude

Actually HDR10+ is strictly a ripoff of Dolby Vision from Samsung, who didn't want to implement Dolby Vison on their TVs, so they've blatantly carboned copied Dolby Vision technology, and called it their own.

Dolby made the different versions of HDR free for anyone to use. If Dolby wanted companies to ONLY use Dolby Vision, they wouldn't have branched out HDR10 etc for others to use.

[jibucha]

Dolby did want Dolby Vision as the default (only) HDR
Dolby gave away HDR10 to insure HDR (although limited)
note :: it was the consumer electronics industry that did not want 'only Dolby Vision'

Originally Posted by ray0414

Dolby made the different versions of HDR free for anyone to use. If Dolby wanted companies to ONLY use Dolby Vision, they wouldn't have branched out HDR10 etc for others to use.

[DJR662]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aside from the improvements in tone mapping - which even the mighty ZD9 can benefit from in extreme cases, as we discussed - I don't think that there's a drastic difference between the actual HDR10 and DV grades at source level, particularly when the base layer is encoded at 4000 nits anyway. There is, however, an exception: Paramount's UHD of Annihilation which has an extremely black crushed base layer while the DV brings back the proper shadow detail.

However, I've still come to use DV more often than not because of how it has drastically improved the compression on some titles. Now whether the actual DV encoding process has knackered the HDR10 layer is up for debate (hi mike), but I find Saving Private Ryan to be unwatchable, literally unwatchable, in HDR10 while the DV improves it greatly. Ditto for several of StudioCanal's UHD titles, although their HDR10-only Rambos prove that they can encode HDR10 just as badly on a standalone disc as on a DV disc.

People aks how such voodoo is done and it's because of how the (full) enhancement layer rebuilds the image. Don't take my word for it, as Actual Professional™ Stacey Spears explained it in the HDR Discussion thread: the (full) enhancement layer is the result of comparing the final compressed HDR10 encode to the DV source master, so it does its best to replicate what it finds in there, be it differences in grading (as with the aforementioned black levels, or that the DV layer can contain >1000 nit information if the HDR10 layer has been capped at 1000 nits) or rescuing terribad compression.

These are things that HDR10+ is simply not capable of doing, though one could of course argue that if something was compressed properly in the first place then it wouldn't need DV to act as a firefighter in dousing them blocky-assed flames...

Thanks and great post as usual, honest and informative as well.

I've read some people claiming DV is the holy grail of HDR, making every DV encoded disc (or stream) look much better ("better" colors, "better" black levels etc) than the regular HDR10. Someone here I think even went as far saying Valerian And The City Of A Thousand Planets looks like a "completely different movie" in DV? Guess it's a little more nuanced in reality and it will depend on different factors.

It's a shame DV on the Panasonic 820 is not working 100% properly (as I recently experienced first hand with The Meg which Geoff kindly pointed out), so that's why I was thinking of maybe getting the X800 M2.

[Infernal King]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Aside from the improvements in tone mapping - which even the mighty ZD9 can benefit from in extreme cases, as we discussed - I don't think that there's a drastic difference between the actual HDR10 and DV grades at source level, particularly when the base layer is encoded at 4000 nits anyway. There is, however, an exception: Paramount's UHD of Annihilation which has an extremely black crushed base layer while the DV brings back the proper shadow detail.

However, I've still come to use DV more often than not because of how it has drastically improved the compression on some titles. Now whether the actual DV encoding process has knackered the HDR10 layer is up for debate (hi mike), but I find Saving Private Ryan to be unwatchable, literally unwatchable, in HDR10 while the DV improves it greatly. Ditto for several of StudioCanal's UHD titles, although their HDR10-only Rambos prove that they can encode HDR10 just as badly on a standalone disc as on a DV disc.

People aks how such voodoo is done and it's because of how the (full) enhancement layer rebuilds the image. Don't take my word for it, as Actual Professional™ Stacey Spears explained it in the HDR Discussion thread: the (full) enhancement layer is the result of comparing the final compressed HDR10 encode to the DV source master, so it does its best to replicate what it finds in there, be it differences in grading (as with the aforementioned black levels, or that the DV layer can contain >1000 nit information if the HDR10 layer has been capped at 1000 nits) or rescuing terribad compression.

These are things that HDR10+ is simply not capable of doing, though one could of course argue that if something was compressed properly in the first place then it wouldn't need DV to act as a firefighter in dousing them blocky-assed flames...

Great and informative post as usual, Geoff. Would you say turning on Dolby Vision mode in the Sony X700 (or any player capable of it) is recommended for all 4K UHDs, even the ones that aren't specifically DV-encoded?

Originally Posted by ray0414

hdr10+ makes a big difference on lower nit displays, but zero difference on displays 1000+nits. Stacey Spears exact words

How does one find out how many nits one's display has?

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by ray0414

hdr10+ makes a big difference on lower nit displays, but zero difference on displays 1000+nits. Stacey Spears exact words

That's dynamic metadata in a nutshell. It depends on the content, if you have something that's got >1000 nit information then of course the 10+ dynamic mapping could help, even on a light cannon like the ZD9 because on optimal calibrated settings it clips highlight information at ~1500 nits, and starts rolling off highlight detail before that point, at around 1200 nits I'd say. (This is a hypothetical of course as there will be no 10+ support for the ZD9.)

BUT Fox, the main studio that's been deploying 10+ thus far, strictly masters their discs to 1000 nits anyway (1100 for their earliest titles) which a TV like the ZD9 can handle with no compromise whatsoever in terms of peak brightness and highlight retention therein, so the 10+ would be useless. Uni are another 10+ partner and, again, they too master their HDR10 discs/layers to 1000 nits anyway. Warners still persist with 4000 nit HDR10 discs/layers though.

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

So, it's mostly a bunch of BS by Samsung in order to exact licensing fees.

At least with some DV content you do get 12 bit encoding rather than 10 bit. HDR10+ is strictly dynamic metadata. Nothing else.

Kris Deering said that 10+ is basically Samsung's attempt to try and wring better performance from its low to mid tier TVs, for the worse that LCD dimming gets then the more it struggles with the kinds of dynamic transitions (I don't mean metadata, I mean the content itself) between light and dark that HDR contains. I'd love to see how HDR10 and 10+ compare on one of their higher end LCDs, providing that they haven't broken the 'in house' HDR10 mapping in order to make 10+ look better. Perhaps a better point of comparison between 10 and 10+ would be something like the upcoming Panny OLEDs.

[Pieter V]

New:


Dolby Vision and HDR10+.

[Pieter V]

New:

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Pieter V

New:

Exactly the breakthrough HDR20+ and Shame-sung needed lol.

[Pieter V]

New:


Both Dolby Vision and HDR10+ according to UPHE.