4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by elwaylite

Figures...http://hdguru.com/uhd-alliance-sets-...ces-unveiling/

Don’t worry ray(gendreau), your upcoming HDR OLED’s will sell just fine.

[Desk.]

Originally Posted by elwaylite

Figures...

http://hdguru.com/uhd-alliance-sets-...ces-unveiling/

Forgive my ignorance, but does this suggest it will nail down HDR specifications - ensuring there's not a format war between Dolby Vision, HDR10, and HLG?

To put it simply, if I buy set boasting the 4K UHD 'new consumer-facing certification logo' next year, will it be reasonably future-proofed in terms of HDR?

Desk

[jeff_rigby]

Released Oct 2015 is: Mt. Fuji Commands for Multimedia Devices Version 9

Page 83 lists the BD capacities. There is no separate UHD drive, a BD-ROM version 2 drive (complies with the 2010 BD-R paper) can read TL disks which have 100 GB capacity.

A BD-ROM drive is a read only drive and can read but can not write 3 layer or 4 layer XL/TL disks. ROM disks are commercial read only and are easier to read than recordable. The released 10/2015 paper has all multi-media drives listed as of that date and UHD blu-ray if it requires a different drive should be listed.

This confirms that Modern blu-ray drives can support 100GB disks. OEM PCs that comply with Windows 10 requirements should be able to be UHD blu-ray players. (HDMI 2, TEE and trusted boot) I believe this applies to the XB1 and PS4 also.

Previously posted:

Originally Posted by https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=256623

I've been informed that PC's will not require new Blu-ray drives to playback 4k media/bluray. PC's will only need software that supports 4K (PowerDVD 14 already does this). So we have it then....

Modern Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray There is a 2010 patent from Sony which confirms modern blu-ray drives can support 4k blu-ray. The patent discusses a modification to either the coming 4 layer BDXL in the 2010 blu-ray whitepaper or 3 layer 4K blu-ray disks to make them unreadable on older blu-ray drives by inverting the track information. A software change to later higher spec standard blu-ray drives makes them able to read this inverted track information.

For example, if a new version of the Blu-ray Disc that incorporates a multi-layer structure of at least three layers (hereinafter called the Ver. 2.0 disc) becomes commercially available in the future, it could happen that a user would load a Ver. 2.0 disc into a Ver. 1.0 drive.

Basically, because the Blu-ray Disc format is the same, recording and playing back a Ver. 2.0 disc on a Ver. 1.0 drive would not be absolutely impossible. However, if the Ver. 2.0 disc is achieved by using higher density and more layers, it can be assumed that the various types of specifications with which the Ver. 1.0 drive is provided would not the adequate.

Therefore, in a case where recording and playback of a Ver. 2.0 disc are done on a Ver. 1.0 drive, there is concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency.

So a change to the specs of a blu-ray drive would make it usable for 4K. That's what the 2010 blu-ray BD-R whitepaper was all about. They had from 2010 to do this. Sometime after 2010 modern drives could read 4 layer BDXL which means they could easily read 3 Layer commercial disks.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Too funny, after Bill’s 2013 disparaging editorial (fraught with technological error I might add) about 4K Blu-ray entitled “Suppose they gave us 4K and Nobody Really Cared”, as a good salesman would , he’s now changed his tune (by placating his readership) and promoting the format even sooner than Geoff and I’d predicted.

Ker-ching! Funnily enough I've gone the other way, from a staunch supporter to 'meh'. I'm still interested in the format but only from an academic viewpoint, though if Sony or Panasonic were to send me a player for, ah, beta testing purposes on legacy 4K TVs I wouldn't say no.

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ker-ching! Funnily enough I've gone the other way, from a staunch supporter to 'meh'. ..

I haven't so much gone the other way as much as I have come full circle.

I was an early skeptic. I doubted there would be a 4K BD format and I doubted if anybody would care.

Then, late in the summer of 2014 when 4k BD was "Confirmed, coming Late in 2015" " I thought, "OK, this really is going to happen".

But I've moved back closer to my original opinion. With 2016 only days away, I've grown weary of the last 15 months of lip service, breadboard prototypes, small announcements and nothing concrete. We have a handful of mediocre titles proposed with no dates but we have no plans announced by most major studios...to match the promises without dates from hardware makers. Six months ago (and many times since), I was asking for updates on the testing of production standard discs and I have still seen nothing. I stopped asking.

I suppose UHD BD will happen eventually but I don't think there are many people left who really care. Oh, I'm sure a lot of people here will care. Unfortunately, I doubt if this will remain of any serious interest to all those content providers who still remain silent or to the retailers who put this stuff before the uninterested public. People who buy modern action flicks may find a decent selection of UHD BDs. I'm sure a few big catalogue titles will see release.

Truth is, Bill Hunt's original thesis is likely correct (despite any factual or detail shortcomings). Nobody will really care about this.

[HeavyHitter]

Penton,

This was posted by a very informed member on another site.

This information stems from SpectraCal (Calman calibration software). What struck me the most is the claim that the studio masters are NOT in P3, but either 2020 or rec 709.

Can you shed any light on this claim? There are also some interesting things regarding HDR and calibration.

Calibration for UHD BD in general is going to be rather interesting.

Learning a lot from Joel in the Spectracal thread. Go there for the full details, but here is a summary (which I'm hoping I'm getting right) and my own extrapolation for practical purposes:


- Although studios are still mastering using monitors closer to DCI capabilities than rec-2020 capabilities most of the time, they are NOT encoding content in P3, so we shouldn't calibrate our displays to P3 for UHD Bluray. They are encoding content in rec2020 (or rec-709) and are telling with metadata the exact capabilities that were used during mastering.
- So when we calibrate for UHD Bluray, we are NOT calibrating to P3. We are calibrating to rec-2020, and our displays will display the most they can get using the mastering metadata to do it properly. So of course a display capable of P3 or close to P3 (like the rs500/600 or the LS10000) is better than a display capable of rec709 only, but there is no point in calibrating to P3, as you would lose some of the capability of the display to get an accurate calibration which doesn't matter for UHD Bluray content (or any UHDTV content).
- As we are supposed to calibrate to rec2020, obviously all our calibrations will be undersaturated at 100% saturation for a while until consumer displays catch up. It doesn't really matter if our display is capable of only 95% of P3. 105% of P3 is better, and should be kept as such, it will still be understaturated at 100%, but it's better than getting our display exactly to P3.
- Also, while we'll be undersaturated at 100% sat (where there is little actual content), we'll be accurate at 75% sat and below, which is where most of the content is. It is likely that our primaries at 75% sat will measure very close to what we get for 100% when we check our saturations. Weird, but fine. The standard is rec2020, so until that's what we get in the display (both on the mastering side and the playback side), we'll display an undersaturated approximation of the standard, at least at 100% sat.
- Unlike for Dolby Vision, we can't use a PC based pattern generator as HDR10 requires HDMI 2.0a (the metadata is transmitted differently) and this isn't available on PCs yet (both hardware and drivers support for HDMI 2.0a needed for the GPU, so likely not until Arctic Islands for AMD in 2016).
- HDR10 doesn't define any consumer playback standard. It's a real mess and if it does become the standard, I'll be really surprised. In the meantime, the JVC Autocal should help us to get a decent - although not 100% accurate - PQ gamma calibration for HDR10 as JVC has access to their proprietary remapping algorithm (until other software help us with it), but for UHD Bluray we shouldn't be using a DCI/P3 calibration. We have instead to use a rec2020 calibration.

I'm glad I'm starting to understand all of this better and I hope this makes sense. This should get clearer in January, after the UHD Alliance defines the standard (especially for HDR).

All this to say that we have prototypes anyway regarding upcoming UHD content, so let's no let all this spoil the enjoyment these new models are bringing to SDR/HD content (which represents most of what we're going to watch anyway over the next couple of years).

It will take a few of years at best before displays catch up fully with the new standards. So let's relax!

If you want a fully compliant display, don't wait until next year. Be prepared to wait until 2020...

I feel much better now, knowing that it's not just one thing that's in question for full compliance, but just about everything.

[HeavyHitter]

More discussion here:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/jvc...#post-22958920

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Dex Robinson

Truth is, Bill Hunt's original thesis is likely correct (despite any factual or detail shortcomings).

Truth is….original thesis -> current marketing practice,
Highlights that the hypocrisy of salesmen has no limits…..come to think of it, less so than politicians, so I guess they should be commended in that sense. But enough on Bill, he’s just trying every way he can to make a buck like many other salesman.

Originally Posted by Dex Robinson

Nobody will really care about this.

Well as an enthusiast, on an enthusiast forum devoted to higher quality physical media (like in the days of Blu-ray vs. HD DVD), I hope that not be the case. Though it doesn't take any genius to figure out that lack of success will not be surprising given all other forms of entertainment and modern culture geared toward convenience.

But even so, in my eyes, winning widespread adoption among the masses isn’t necessarily the critical point of the Ultra HD Blu-ray section of this forum. It’s about being part of a community and everyone coming together in order to celebrate video improvement, e.g. Palace fans cheered their players off the field even when they lost to Man City.

[Opips3]

Hollywood wants to force on stream movie HD internet, use without a physical media format. Resolution!!!

Studio wants this physical media is best quality. Proof copy by protect Trojan.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Penton,
Can you shed any light on this claim?....

- So when we calibrate for UHD Bluray,

Personally, if I were you, I wouldn’t get too much involved in the do-it-yourself calibration scene as those folks (along with the artifact hunters in some TV Owners Threads on some other forums) remind me of these guys in how they torture themselves….

Ashura festival climaxes with bloody self-flagellation - YouTube

My advice: Purchase the TV or projector with the best color accuracy and coverage you can afford and PAY someone else (having top end equipment) to HDR calibrate it, if you desire the utmost in precision.

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

HDR10 doesn't define any consumer playback standard....

yes, that ^ was brought to folks’ attention last September

Now adding on to the very end of that ^ Sept. post "…..these compression curves have yet to be standardized" - and as such, it is not possible to predict precisely how images will be reproduced across a range of HDR10 display devices.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

More discussion here:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/jvc...#post-22958920

Cripes does manni work for a living or not? I’m not going thru that post, as I’ve gotta keep moving.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

My advice: Purchase the TV or projector with the best color accuracy and coverage you can afford and PAY someone else (having top end equipment) to HDR calibrate it, if you desire the utmost in precision.

That seems a bit shortsighted honestly. I am a level 2 ISF calibrator and Manni is well versed in calibration as well and does a lot of beta testing for Spectracal and is pretty prolific in their feedback. I also have top end calibration equipment that would shame most calibrators that make their living doing that kind of work. But if the reality is that you can't properly calibrate (at the moment) for HDR10, which is what Manni is trying to figure out with the help of the key engineers from the company that is one of the leaders in both consumer and pro calibration, than hiring someone isn't going to help as they won't be any more equipped to deal with this as Manni. We are now getting HDR capable displays and content and there are people that go out of their way to watch things calibrated properly. So now we have to figure out how to make that work with the HDR10 format as it seems to be gaining some traction in the higher end displays available. I have no doubt that some paid calibrator is having the same issues and wouldn't be any more equipped to solve the issue.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Ker-ching! Funnily enough I've gone the other way, from a staunch supporter to 'meh'. I'm still interested in the format but only from an academic viewpoint, though if Sony or Panasonic were to send me a player for, ah, beta testing purposes on legacy 4K TVs I wouldn't say no.

Send me a 2tb drive

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

That seems a bit shortsighted honestly. I am a level 2 ISF calibrator and Manni is well versed in calibration as well and does a lot of beta testing for Spectracal and is pretty prolific in their feedback. I also have top end calibration equipment that would shame most calibrators that make their living doing that kind of work. But if the reality is that you can't properly calibrate (at the moment) for HDR10, which is what Manni is trying to figure out with the help of the key engineers from the company that is one of the leaders in both consumer and pro calibration, than hiring someone isn't going to help as they won't be any more equipped to deal with this as Manni. We are now getting HDR capable displays and content and there are people that go out of their way to watch things calibrated properly. So now we have to figure out how to make that work with the HDR10 format as it seems to be gaining some traction in the higher end displays available. I have no doubt that some paid calibrator is having the same issues and wouldn't be any more equipped to solve the issue.

Sorry Kris, no harm was intended as I’m not familiar with manni (no offense) nor any of those other people posting on avforums (again no offense) and didn’t realize it may have been meant (was it?) to be a brainstorming session among highly qualified calibrators with years of experience geared toward improving implementation of a product…..though I’d think that be best performed and most productive in a SpectraCal discussion group.

My point was that I was trying to save casual readers (like HeavyHitter) the heartache (and equipmental expense) of pursuing HDR calibration by doing it themselves, often to a lesser quality than someone who does it for a living or as a very serious hobby.

[Kris Deering]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Sorry Kris, no harm was intended as I’m not familiar with manni (no offense) nor any of those other people posting on avforums (again no offense) and didn’t realize it may have been meant (was it?) to be a brainstorming session among highly qualified calibrators with years of experience geared toward improving implementation of a product…..though I’d think that be best performed and most productive in a SpectraCal discussion group.

My point was that I was trying to save casual readers (like HeavyHitter) the heartache (and equipmental expense) of pursuing HDR calibration by doing it themselves, often to a lesser quality than someone who does it for a living or as a very serious hobby.

Actually the post that was linked to earlier that you saw was Manni's summary post of the LONG conversation that is going on in the Spectracal forums with their guys. So the better more productive discussion is going on there with Manni giving some folks at AVS a heads up with key points. Certainly no offense taken, just wanted to point out that right now we're all in the same boat for HDR calibration, pro and enthusiast alike. Hopefully it all gets figured out.

[Dex Robinson]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

But even so, in my eyes, winning widespread adoption among the masses isn’t necessarily the critical point of the Ultra HD Blu-ray section of this forum. It’s about being part of a community and everyone coming together in order to celebrate video improvement, e.g. Palace fans cheered their players off the field even when they lost to Man City.

However, we NEED the masses to ensure an ongoing supply of varied titles.

To further the sports analogy...I'm a hot-rodder. The reason that I have access to Chevy big block V8 engines is NOT because General Motors wants to service a few thousand enthusiasts. The reason I can get a big block is because, many years ago, some shoe salesman decided he needed an Impala station wagon to take his family to Cypress Gardens.

In other words, the masses provided the overall market in which the enthusiast could exist.

We need the masses to guarantee that production equipment is purchased and that productions lines can operate at reasonable volume and profit. We need multiple makers producing players in order to make them affordable...Samsung and Panasonic will have us ALL (themselves included) over barrel if only a limited number of people buy into this format.

My personal reality is that I will almost certainly "buy into" UHD BD. I've bought into every other format. I still have my dads old Betamax player and I have an HD DVD player squirreled away. My next TV will be 4K and, since it will be backward compatible, I'll buy a UHD BD player (at a reasonable price). But I have serious doubts about titles. I am an enthusiast. 95% of my BD purchases are catalogue titles. If this format lands with a thud, who's going to put money into pressing those 1950's, 60's and foreign films that I buy?

So I may well end up with a full UHD BD home theater...and 5 UHD Blu-ray Discs (of the discs proposed so far, I wouldn't pay $2.00 for all of them put together).

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

Penton,

This was posted by a very informed member on another site.

This information stems from SpectraCal (Calman calibration software). What struck me the most is the claim that the studio masters are NOT in P3, but either 2020 or rec 709.

Just a quick aside: is it so shocking that 709 is still part of the home video mastering ecosystem? Studios - especially those who've been archiving 4K for a while - will surely have a certain amount of extant 4K material mastered for 709 simply because that was - is - the consumer display standard until all this UHD guff is finalised.

Heck, even though we've had all the spiel about 4K spatial resolution alone not being enough vs 2K (guilty as charged, m'lud), it may well be that some studios release that SDR 709 4K stuff 'as is' onto UHD BD instead of farting about regrading it all from scratch. I can see that happening with older catalogue titles and/or non 'marquee' films and franchises. I'd be perfectly happy if they released all those older 4K masters onto UHD Blu just for me while everyone else can have the HDR P3/2020 versions.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by elwaylite

Figures...

http://hdguru.com/uhd-alliance-sets-...ces-unveiling/

The UHD Alliance doesn't want to anger any of the CE companies so they aren't going to announce their requirements until CES.

Originally Posted by Desk.

Forgive my ignorance, but does this suggest it will nail down HDR specifications - ensuring there's not a format war between Dolby Vision, HDR10, and HLG?

To put it simply, if I buy set boasting the 4K UHD 'new consumer-facing certification logo' next year, will it be reasonably future-proofed in terms of HDR?

I think it is just a way to convince consumers that HDR is "ready to buy" and that they should buy new displays. It won't change any of the factors (compatibility, cost, production, royalties, etc...) that are causing companies to look at other HDR standards.

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

- HDR10 doesn't define any consumer playback standard. It's a real mess and if it does become the standard, I'll be really surprised.

Yet despite the flaws the CE companies are going to heavily promote it in order to convince consumers that HDR is ready to buy. I think that in a year or two the CE companies will come out with a proper replacement (something like HDR10+, HDR10 Complete, or HDR10 Ultra Mega Extreme).

Originally Posted by HeavyHitter

More discussion here:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/jvc...#post-22958920

Interesting discussion and it was nice to hear that some production facilities are now using laser projectors that can reach the Rec. 2020 color space.

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Just a quick aside: is it so shocking that 709 is still part of the home video mastering ecosystem? Studios - especially those who've been archiving 4K for a while - will surely have a certain amount of extant 4K material mastered for 709 simply because that was - is - the consumer display standard until all this UHD guff is finalised.

DCI P3 has been used in movie theaters for about a decade so my guess is that Rec. 709 was only used for 4K TV shows.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

The UHD Alliance doesn't want to anger any of the CE companies so they aren't going to announce their requirements until CES.

I think it is just a way to convince consumers that HDR is "ready to buy" and that they should buy new displays. It won't change any of the factors (compatibility, cost, production, royalties, etc...) that are causing companies to look at other HDR standards.

Yet despite the flaws the CE companies are going to heavily promote it in order to convince consumers that HDR is ready to buy. I think that in a year or two the CE companies will come out with a proper replacement (something like HDR10+, HDR10 Complete, or HDR10 Ultra Mega Extreme).

Interesting discussion and it was nice to hear that some production facilities are now using laser projectors that can reach the Rec. 2020 color space.

DCI P3 has been used in movie theaters for about a decade so my guess is that Rec. 709 was only used for 4K TV shows.

Yeah, as long as they don't take 1080p home video masters and try to pass them off as UHD with some quick uprezzing (*cough* Universal *cough*), the source for UHD media should be their cinema DI masters, which use DCI-P3 color.

I saw a Barco laser projector demo at CEDIA a few weeks back and it was jaw dropping. The best images I have ever witnessed. Blacks were jet black with little bleed when combined with white text, amazing colors jumped off the screen. And this was on a BIG Cinemascope-like home theater screen.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Kris Deering

Actually the post that was linked to earlier that you saw was Manni's summary post of the LONG conversation that is going on in the Spectracal forums with their guys.

Busy, busy day. In my haste to get thru Heavy’s post and find a supplemental YouTube illustration, I’d missed the fact that the whole discussion had originated around postings in a SpectraCal group. Well anyway...I'll go back and see if I can add anything before hitting the sack.