HDR Discussion Thread

[Penton-Man]

^ Hmm….7,000 nits and perhaps optimized to be increased even higher say they, that’s getting up thar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLBPUN_S-ms#t=19m7s, mrtickleuk -

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

You know we made a big thing about how 12 bit was required to overcome the Barten Threshold?

at that high a luminance level, esp. for animation and vfx content, there just may turn out to be some value as to dem 12 bits all along -

Dolby Vision 4K Blu-ray CES 2017 Interview - YouTube

[Lee A Stewart]

V-Nova, NETINT team to enhance transcoding with MPEG-5 LCEVC

MPEG-5 LCEVC is a codec enhancement technology that is claimed to enhance significantly the video streaming performance of existing and future codecs. V-Nova LCEVC is a multi-platform software library for MPEG-5 LCEVC that is said to be able to improve the compression quality of any base video codec by up to 50% whilst simultaneously accelerating encoding by up to 4x. V-Nova believes that any playback device supporting the underlying codec can be quickly upgraded in software to gain the benefits.

“Our collaboration with NETINT illustrates again how even high-performance hardware transcoding applications can be enhanced to deliver next-generation picture quality for both live and VOD applications,” added V-Nova CEO and co-founder Guido Meardi. “The proven ability of LCEVC to enhance the compression performance of any base video codec (e.g., AVC, HEVC, AV1, EVC or VVC) while lowering the overall computational complexity, is gaining strong traction in multiple applications. It’s great to see more and more companies working towards LCEVC adoption.”

https://www.rapidtvnews.com/20200804...#axzz6UfxdHGmn

[Lee A Stewart]

The “Volume” stage created for the production of the Disney Plus sci-fi series The Mandalorian captured the imagination of filmmakers everywhere, as high-quality LED screens present not only parallax-correct HD background material, but interactive lighting and reflections.

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

^ Hmm….7,000 nits and perhaps optimized to be increased even higher say they, that’s getting up thar - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLBPUN_S-ms#t=19m7s, mrtickleuk -

at that high a luminance level, esp. for animation and vfx content, there just may turn out to be some value as to dem 12 bits all along -

Dolby Vision 4K Blu-ray CES 2017 Interview - YouTube

Indeed - I'm not doubting the value of 12 bits, I'm just angry at all the moves Dolby has been making since, to furiously backtrack from using 12 bits and delivering 12 bits to consumer displays! We need 12 bit panels, and we'll never get them without Dolby pushing this with real 12 bit content.

Instead, we'll have years and years of manufacturers giving us all the wrong things (like 8k in the home for example. Vincent's review of the Samsung Q950TS the other day explained brilliantly why 8k in the home is stupid and the wrong priority. 12 bit panels should be the priority.).

[Show spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY4z2vjQ7S4

I don't want more pixels (8K), I want better pixels (12 bit). I wish Dolby hadn't abandoned this in the way they seem to have done.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

If we're becoming a digital world rather than a physical one, then a lot of companies are backtracking on "better" anything.



I see banding and macroblocking and lossy audio to be the new norm. Convenience (or laziness) rules, quality be damned.


The Brave New World indeed.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Lee A Stewart

Lol! I like how that image actually contradicts the text by having a man on a crane with a giant light. Unless that crane is actually part of the render on the wall. That would be meta.

Related, it seems that the tech is taking off. Not only did Westworld season three have a similar setup, but some indie studio in the UK called Rebellion has one too. See these vids on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/ebenbolter/statu...13255545688064
https://twitter.com/ebenbolter/statu...65218124197890
https://twitter.com/HaZ_Dulull/statu...30875706011649

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Indeed - I'm not doubting the value of 12 bits, I'm just angry at all the moves Dolby has been making since, to furiously backtrack from using 12 bits and delivering 12 bits to consumer displays! We need 12 bit panels, and we'll never get them without Dolby pushing this with real 12 bit content.

it’s complicated

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

[Show spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY4z2vjQ7S4

regarding Vincent’s comment at the end – my opinion: not to belittle Jordan Henderson because besides his soccer skills, I heard he’s done a lot for your national health service or other such charitable causes in these times of the pandemic so maybe the voters also took that into consideration?, but I’d a voted for de Bruyne

[Penton-Man]

The leverage swings –
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tomnuna.../#3695bfbc3366

following the pandemic eventually being controlled with good leadership and medical advances, intriguing not so much if one studio were to own a theater chain, but if multiple studios were to join in a partnership for co-ownership, and even if that were not to happen, just the possibility of it occurring may spawn more events like this - https://variety.com/2020/film/news/a...re-1234718942/

[Penton-Man]

Whitney Houston - I Wanna Dance with Somebody (Live at Arista's 15th Anniversary, 1990) - YouTube

hmm, a good candidate for Atmos and DV (given - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...t#post17312834), this? -
https://deadline.com/2020/08/whitney...te-1203002572/

[Lee A Stewart]

Xiaomi’s new 55" $7,000 transparent OLED TV (only available in China)

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Indeed - I'm not doubting the value of 12 bits, I'm just angry at all the moves Dolby has been making since, to furiously backtrack from using 12 bits and delivering 12 bits to consumer displays! We need 12 bit panels, and we'll never get them without Dolby pushing this with real 12 bit content.

Instead, we'll have years and years of manufacturers giving us all the wrong things (like 8k in the home for example. Vincent's review of the Samsung Q950TS the other day explained brilliantly why 8k in the home is stupid and the wrong priority. 12 bit panels should be the priority.).

[Show spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY4z2vjQ7S4

I don't want more pixels (8K), I want better pixels (12 bit). I wish Dolby hadn't abandoned this in the way they seem to have done.

If I read and understood one of the more recent Dolby whitepapers correctly, it says that the 10 bit MEL is related to HDR10 and studio request. A 4000 nit FEL master, results in a 1000 nit HDR10 base layer because of the amount of data required.

So its understandable, the creator would want to make sure intent is available no matter the format.

[Penton-Man]

Rather than all the brouhaha regarding the non-news, Disney ‘news’ about UHD BDs, something I see as newsworthy is Ron Sanders’s departure from WarnerMedia (https://variety.com/2020/film/news/l...bo-1234730458/ ) and a possible resultant deleterious effect on their future 4K HDR disc offerings without his leadership.

[Lee A Stewart]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Rather than all the brouhaha regarding the non-news, Disney ‘news’ about UHD BDs, something I see as newsworthy is Ron Sanders’s departure from WarnerMedia (https://variety.com/2020/film/news/l...bo-1234730458/ ) and a possible resultant deleterious effect on their future 4K HDR disc offerings without his leadership.

Universal, Warner Bros. to Form DVD Joint Venture as Disc Sales Keep Dwindling

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/u...nt-1203467934/

[Penton-Man]

personally, I don’t feel the power brokers who remain there at WB have that ^ same zest for physical media, I guess we shall see

[mrtickleuk]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

If I read and understood one of the more recent Dolby whitepapers correctly, it says that the 10 bit MEL is related to HDR10 and studio request. A 4000 nit FEL master, results in a 1000 nit HDR10 base layer because of the amount of data required.

Hmm are you sure that's correct? I don't see how there would be any more or less data if it's 4000 than 1000. If it's 4000 then you don't have the first 1000 in the base layer and the next 3000 in the Enhancement layer. That's not how it works?

You'd have your 4000 nit HDR10 base layer with your 4000 nit 2-bit Enhancement layer for Dolby Vision.

So its understandable, the creator would want to make sure intent is available no matter the format.

If they really meant that, surely they'd use more 100GB discs and not skimp with 66GB discs and a low bitrate.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by mrtickleuk

Hmm are you sure that's correct? I don't see how there would be any more or less data if it's 4000 than 1000. If it's 4000 then you don't have the first 1000 in the base layer and the next 3000 in the Enhancement layer. That's not how it works?

You'd have your 4000 nit HDR10 base layer with your 4000 nit 2-bit Enhancement layer for Dolby Vision.



If they really meant that, surely they'd use more 100GB discs and not skimp with 66GB discs and a low bitrate.

I re-read the white paper.

On disc authoring.

It states some studios choose to use mapping down to 1000 nits from the 4000 nit Dolby Vision master, so that no or less tone mapping has to be performed on the consumer side.

Using MEL means that the 12 bit master data is not included, which we already knew.

So MEL 4000 nit master with 1000 nit map no 12 bit DV master data and FEL 12 bit 4000 nit master with 1000 nit map.

The portion below is from the white paper.


FEL Better video quality
Can recreate the 12-bit signal*
Can recreate the 4000-nit signal from the
1000-nit base layer
Longer processing time to produce and
more disc space required

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

I re-read the white paper.

On disc authoring.

It states some studios choose to use mapping down to 1000 nits from the 4000 nit Dolby Vision master, so that no or less tone mapping has to be performed on the consumer side.

Using MEL means that the 12 bit master data is not included, which we already knew.

So MEL 4000 nit master with 1000 nit map no 12 bit DV master data and FEL 12 bit 4000 nit master with 1000 nit map.

The portion below is from the white paper.


FEL Better video quality
Can recreate the 12-bit signal*
Can recreate the 4000-nit signal from the
1000-nit base layer
Longer processing time to produce and
more disc space required

12 bit pixel depth should never have been optional on the BDA specs, it should have been mandated from the beginning given HDR grading, which requires higher than 10 bits as a threshold. Make something optional and the studios will usually go with the lowest level of quality.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

12 bit pixel depth should never have been optional on the BDA specs, it should have been mandated from the beginning given HDR grading, which requires higher than 10 bits as a threshold. Make something optional and the studios will usually go with the lowest level of quality.

Disney maps there 4000 nit masters to 1000 nits, I'm not sure if they use MEL or FEL. Paramount doesn't use mapping because they do 1000 nit masters, but they do use FEL. Universal, they should still be using FEL since HDR10+ takes up very little space. No mapping, they do 1000 nit masters.

Sony and WB do 4000 nit masters. WB used 100 GB disc FEL 12 bit, some titles used MEL. I don't believe they do any mapping down. My guess is that this applies to Sony as well.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob

Disney maps there 4000 nit masters to 1000 nits, I'm not sure if they use MEL or FEL. Paramount doesn't use mapping because they do 1000 nit masters, but they do use FEL. Universal, they should still be using FEL since HDR10+ takes up very little space. No mapping, they do 1000 nit masters.

Sony and WB do 4000 nit masters. WB used 100 GB disc FEL 12 bit, some titles used MEL. I don't believe they do any mapping down. My guess is that this applies to Sony as well.

Sony and WB has been doing MEL DV for the most part, though very, very few of Sony disc titles have Dolby Vision in the first place. Disney does no Dolby Vision disc titles except for two MEL titles.


As far as I'm aware streaming DV is MEL only and sometimes not even 10 bit.


Lionsgate, Universal, and Paramount use 12 bit FEL. I think the one Kino Lorber title so far plus Studio Canal, and Shout! have used 12 bit FEL DV when offered. We have yet to see how Arrow had Cinema Paradiso encoded.


But none of that FEL or MEL or no DV at all jazz would not have mattered if the BDA had just mandated 12 bit video encodes (as well as wide gamut friendly ICtCp chroma sampling) from the start.

[DisplayCalNoob]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Sony and WB has been doing MEL DV for the most part, though very, very few of Sony disc titles have Dolby Vision in the first place. Disney does no Dolby Vision disc titles except for two MEL titles.


As far as I'm aware streaming DV is MEL only and sometimes not even 10 bit.


Lionsgate, Universal, and Paramount use 12 bit FEL. I think the one Kino Lorber title so far plus Studio Canal, and Shout! have used 12 bit FEL DV when offered. We have yet to see how Arrow had Cinema Paradiso encoded.


But none of that FEL or MEL or no DV at all jazz would not have mattered if the BDA had just mandated 12 bit video encodes (as well as wide gamut friendly ICtCp chroma sampling) from the start.

Disney mapping down to 1000 nits could be one of the reasons for no DV on disc. I wouldn't be surprised to see Disney re-release their content advertising 12 bit 4000 nit masters.

Most or all (if I'm not mistaken) DV disc ignore YCbCr for a better color model.