HDR Discussion Thread

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by batman2000

out of all versions of hdr is dolby vision still the best?

Best for what?

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by batman2000

which one is the better one dolby vision or technicolor.

Personally, I favor the top left technology highlight….http://bydeluxemedia.com/advanced-formats/

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by DanBa

is signaled in the VUI

For those unfamiliar with the acronym, VUI stands for video usability information (message).

[Penton-Man]

Follow up to a New Year’s Eve (12/31/2016) prediction (before going out locally for a night of fun) – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post13052646

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/s...ors-to-history

[Penton-Man]

And speaking of CinemaCon ^, on a more immediate implementation note, follow up to dem Pirates - https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...s#post13379707

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/beh...llation-989282

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Follow up to a New Year’s Eve (12/31/2016) prediction (before going out locally for a night of fun) – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post13052646

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/s...ors-to-history

I saw that. 500 nit emissive theatrical could be interesting. What are the odds they use it as a sort of back door to push studios to grade in dynamic HDR10+? (Assuming that's the only HDR their panels will support.)

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Follow up to a New Year’s Eve (12/31/2016) prediction (before going out locally for a night of fun) – https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...d#post13052646

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/s...ors-to-history

Any chance of some lottery numbers?

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Personally, I favor the top left technology highlight….http://bydeluxemedia.com/advanced-formats/

Gah, another mention of Disney and HDR (well, EDR) in the same sentence. Wants it on DISC I do!!

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by puddy77

I saw that. 500 nit emissive theatrical could be interesting. What are the odds they use it as a sort of back door to push studios to grade in dynamic HDR10+? (Assuming that's the only HDR their panels will support.)

Dolby and IMAX (HDR) are operated in closed systems (what I’ve termed “walled gardens” in the past) and rather than only adding a 3rd walled garden in terms of a next-gen cinema display (direct LED’s, from no matter who be the manufacturer, e.g. Samsung, Sony, etc.)….it would be truly game changing to develop a new universal theatrical mastering approach yielding dynamic HDR DCPs to feed those futuristic high nit direct LED theatrical displays to produce open gardens throughout the world some day.

That would be my message to all those in Strategic Marketing departments. But getting there is difficult as the DCI system needs some overhaul.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Any chance of some lottery numbers?

hah, it’s been almost a month now and I still can’t live this down with my wife . She reminds me every so often, had I predicted it and made that investment like M.L., she’d be driving the boat with the pony at the bow…..

SuperLotto Plus®: “Ship Lovely Presents� - YouTube

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

...
My question is - what exactly is going on? As far as I'm aware, my TV hasn't been firmware updated to support HLG, but it can play the LG Cymatic Jazz HLG video, while it refuses to play the TravelXP 4K HLG one.

Hard to say since even a slight difference can prevent a video from playing on a TV. The difference could be how HLG is signaled, what container format it uses, or the HEVC level used by the encoder.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Hard to say since even a slight difference can prevent a video from playing on a TV. The difference could be how HLG is signaled, what container format it uses, or the HEVC level used by the encoder.

I'm just surprised my TV was able to play the LG Jazz HLG video. Haven't read anything about it being updated to support HLG.

Both files are TS, btw. Looking at MediaInfo, I don't see much difference between the two.

[WiFi-Spy]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

At NAB 2017, along with demo of HLG on HDR TV, the Ultra HD Forum is planning on showing HLG content on SDR TVs (which support BT.2020).

SDR TVs that support BT.2020 is a smaller number than HDR10 supported TVs. I think the technicolor HDR system is where broadcasters should be looking if they want real SDR compatibility.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by Richard Paul

Hard to say since even a slight difference can prevent a video from playing on a TV. The difference could be how HLG is signaled, what container format it uses, or the HEVC level used by the encoder.

Here is what MediaInfo has to say about the LG Cymatic Jazz HLG file (this file plays and HDR is detected when played on my TV):

General
ID                                       : 1049 (0x419)
Complete name                            : LG_Cymatic_Jazz_HLG_Astra_teststream.ts
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 738 MiB
Duration                                 : 4 min 57 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 20.8 Mb/s

Video
ID                                       : 33 (0x21)
Menu ID                                  : 301 (0x12D)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@Main
Codec ID                                 : 36
Duration                                 : 17 h 6 min
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0 (Type 2)
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Writing library                          : ATEME Titan File 3.7.7 (4.7.7.1)
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : HLG / BT.2020
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant

Audio
ID                                       : 36 (0x24)
Menu ID                                  : 301 (0x12D)
Format                                   : AAC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version                           : Version 4
Format profile                           : LC
Muxing mode                              : ADTS
Codec ID                                 : 15
Duration                                 : 4 min 57 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Channel positions                        : Front: L R
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 spf)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : -36 ms

And for the TravelXP 4K HLG file (this file will not play):

General
ID                                       : 11100 (0x2B5C)
Complete name                            : TravelXP_4K_HDR_HLG.ts
Format                                   : MPEG-TS
File size                                : 722 MiB
Duration                                 : 5 min 0 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 20.1 Mb/s

Video
ID                                       : 457 (0x1C9)
Menu ID                                  : 4603 (0x11FB)
Format                                   : HEVC
Format/Info                              : High Efficiency Video Coding
Format profile                           : Main 10@L5.1@Main
Codec ID                                 : 36
Duration                                 : 1 min 13 s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate                               : 50.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 10 bits
Writing library                          : ATEME Titan File 3.7.6 (4.7.6.0)
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.2020
Transfer characteristics                 : HLG
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.2020 non-constant

Audio
ID                                       : 458 (0x1CA)
Menu ID                                  : 4603 (0x11FB)
Format                                   : AAC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version                           : Version 4
Format profile                           : LC
Muxing mode                              : ADTS
Codec ID                                 : 15
Duration                                 : 1 min 12 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Channel(s)                               : 1 channel
Channel positions                        : Front: C
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Frame rate                               : 46.875 FPS (1024 spf)
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Delay relative to video                  : -156 ms

Menu
ID                                       : 456 (0x1C8)
Menu ID                                  : 4603 (0x11FB)
Duration                                 : 5 min 0 s
List                                     : 457 (0x1C9) (HEVC) / 458 (0x1CA) (AAC)

[zmarty]

Originally Posted by HeatEquation

And for the TravelXP 4K HLG file (this file will not play):

I had a lot of trouble converting that TravelXP file to YouTube HDR. I suspect it's either not really HLG, or not Rec2020.

And by the way, HLG is backwards compatible with SDR TVs, so I would not be surprised that the LG file worked. This is the main advantage of HLG. But if the TV cannot read the extra HLG bits, you are just getting an SDR version of the video.

[HeatEquation]

Originally Posted by zmarty

I had a lot of trouble converting that TravelXP file to YouTube HDR. I suspect it's either not really HLG, or not Rec2020.

And by the way, HLG is backwards compatible with SDR TVs, so I would not be surprised that the LG file worked. This is the main advantage of HLG. But if the TV cannot read the extra HLG bits, you are just getting an SDR version of the video.

It's an HDR TV and I'm getting the HDR version of the LG Cymatic Jazz HLG video. The TV displays the HDR tag and it goes into HDR mode (backlight and contrast both go to 100%.) It also looks identical to the HDR10 version. So it's definitely playing in HDR.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dolby and IMAX (HDR) are operated in closed systems (what I’ve termed “walled gardens” in the past) and rather than only adding a 3rd walled garden in terms of a next-gen cinema display (direct LED’s, from no matter who be the manufacturer, e.g. Samsung, Sony, etc.)….it would be truly game changing to develop a new universal theatrical mastering approach yielding dynamic HDR DCPs to feed those futuristic high nit direct LED theatrical displays to produce open gardens throughout the world some day.

That would be my message to all those in Strategic Marketing departments. But getting there is difficult as the DCI system needs some overhaul.

I agree. I hope that HDR becomes the standard for cinema someday, hopefully sooner rather than later. When I read about EclairColor being somewhat DCI compatible, I thought that might be the first step in that direction. But I guess they decided to become their own walled garden as well, trying to compete with Dolby and Imax with Sphera.

THR also listed a couple other emissive screen technologies at CinemaCon. An 8k Samsung based screen, and a Sony based screen.

With all these different technologies trying to make their way into the theater, it would seem like a DCP with dynamic metadata would be the easiest way to do it. I was talking to a Dolby guy the other day, wondering about their theatrical DCPs. They still use old fashioned grades specific to their projectors. No dynamic metadata there. So I guess all the colorists have job security for awhile.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

Dolby and IMAX (HDR) are operated in closed systems (what I’ve termed “walled gardens” in the past) and rather than only adding a 3rd walled garden in terms of a next-gen cinema display (direct LED’s, from no matter who be the manufacturer, e.g. Samsung, Sony, etc.)….it would be truly game changing to develop a new universal theatrical mastering approach yielding dynamic HDR DCPs to feed those futuristic high nit direct LED theatrical displays to produce open gardens throughout the world some day.

That would be my message to all those in Strategic Marketing departments. But getting there is difficult as the DCI system needs some overhaul.

Addendum, to the bolded ^.
Additionally, even if the SMTE 21 DC committee thru a new study group produces an HDR mastering standard, it is much easier to make a standard, than it is to make it successful (when I last checked, 50 - 60% of Digital Cinema standards are not in wide use), e.g. the long and winding road for deployment of SMPTE DCPs.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy

the technicolor HDR system

It does have its advantageous….. https://soundcloud.com/technicolorco...ting-workflows

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by puddy77

I agree. I hope that HDR becomes the standard for cinema someday, hopefully sooner rather than later. When I read about EclairColor being somewhat DCI compatible, I thought that might be the first step in that direction. But I guess they decided to become their own walled garden as well, trying to compete with Dolby and Imax with Sphera.

THR also listed a couple other emissive screen technologies at CinemaCon. An 8k Samsung based screen, and a Sony based screen.

With all these different technologies trying to make their way into the theater, it would seem like a DCP with dynamic metadata would be the easiest way to do it. I was talking to a Dolby guy the other day, wondering about their theatrical DCPs. They still use old fashioned grades specific to their projectors. No dynamic metadata there. So I guess all the colorists have job security for awhile.

Sure, but where does the dynamic metadata itself come from? (Rhetorical question BTW ) I think the colourists will be alright for a good long while yet.

[puddy77]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

Sure, but where does the dynamic metadata itself come from? (Rhetorical question BTW ) I think the colourists will be alright for a good long while yet.

Lol! Yeah, they're not going anywhere. They may be more important than ever. I meant maybe their load could be lightened. Making dozens of deliverables per movie sounds a bit burdensome.