Why does my Yamaha sound far less superior than my old Denon?

[Gempulse]

I used to have the Denon AVR591, but I had to get rid of it for compatibility complications & I replaced it with the yamaha in my signature. The Denon had SO much more power it is ridiculous... why is this? Am I doing something wrong with my Yamaha?

[rpatt]

Yamaha is notorious for over rating the power of their new AVRs. You're lucky to get the stated wattage while driving only 2-channels.

[Gempulse]

Originally Posted by rpatt

Yamaha is notorious for over rating the power of their new AVRs. You're lucky to get the stated wattage while driving only 2-channels.

You'ew saying my yamaha has more power than my Denon did?

[DavePS3]

It's not just the power, it's lesser quality components in there like the DAC's, the Caps etc. Any manufacturer makes low mid and higher end and the 467 is a pretty basic receiver. I'm not trying to insult you but everyone has a budget and within that budget, is only so much to work with so one gets the best they can find for the amount. Yamaha is a very decent receiver but is made for lower budget constraints. This is why the 467, 667 and 800 are right around the same wattage. It's not just the added HDMI connectors as you go up, it's mainly the components inside.

[rpatt]

Originally Posted by Gempulse

You'ew saying my yamaha has more power than my Denon did?

No. I'm saying that Yamaha AVRs in testing don't produce what they claim. This is the chart on my Yamaha which is rated at 140-Watts/Channel.



This is the RX-V863 which is rated by Yamaha at 105-Watts/Channel.

[lojack1976]

Bench marks should be taken with a grain of salt when looking at multichannel performance. Most modern receivers have protection circuitry that limits output when driving five or more channels, and these reviewers who benchmark them are using mono test tones that trigger the protection. Music and movie soundtracks do not trigger the protection so current is not limited in real world use.

Look at the two channel performance and you will see what you are going to get in most instances. Every channel is capable of the same output, but there are no instances where all channels will be driven to the max simultaneously. It should also be noted that different reviewers get different results at times since testing has no universal standard. Also, manufacturers typically rate their receivers with one channel driven, so their specs can be misleading.

Also, I've demoed several receivers over the last few weeks. I now own a Yamaha RX-V867 and I know first hand that it has plenty of power. I'm pushing 4ohm Martin Logan Preface speakers with ease. The 467 will have similar output. I've also demoed the Denon AVR-2311ci along with the Pioneer VSX-33 and Marantz SR6005 and the Denon had the least power of the three. It had to be turned up more to match the output of the Pioneer and the Marantz. This was real world testing with a variety of speakers including Martin Logan Motion 10's and 12's, and I know the 2311 is easily more powerful than the 591.

I don't know if you ran YPAO, but if you didn't then you definitely need to. After you run it you should also go back into the speaker menu and see if your front speakers are set to Small or Large. If they are set to Large then change them to Small to see if you get different results. When properly set up you should be getting much more output out of the Yammy than with that Denon.

[rpatt]

My point was that some manufacturers are more acurate in rating the power output of their receivers than others. Yamaha is one of the worst. For example this a chart from the same magazine for a Denon receiver rated at 105-Watts/channel.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Gempulse

I used to have the Denon AVR591, but I had to get rid of it for compatibility complications & I replaced it with the yamaha in my signature. The Denon had SO much more power it is ridiculous... why is this? Am I doing something wrong with my Yamaha?

Statements like: AVR X has SO much more power it is ridiculous...

Means nothing unless you can tell us more about your test setup and how you went about comparing the Denon with the Yamaha. Or, was your comparison done by ear based on what you remembered about the Denon vs. the brand new Yammy? Was it based on the AVR's volume control setting? Did you actually even try to A/B them using the same speakers set at the exact same levels and calibration settings using the same source material? You made no mention whether the speakers that you used in your testing even had the same Ohm rating as the ones used with the Denon. Otherwise, the way it looks to me, you're merely making a subjective comparison. There is no way I nor anyone can answer your question: What am I doing wrong with my Yamaha?

What you probably don't realize, and from I can glean from your statements, and this is only a guess too because I don't have the technical specifications for the Denon and Yamaha in front of me, is that AVR's (and power amps as well) made by differenent manufacturers may not have identical input sensitivities which typically range from 0.7 V to 2.0+ V. My Rotel RB 960 BX power amp has an input sensitivity of 2.83V. What is input sensitivity? Well, without getting too technical, it boils down to this. You may have to crank up one or the other AVR's volume control setting higher to achieve the same SPL level at your sweetspot (your listening chair) as would the other AVR volume control at a lower setting. That's what I think you are experiencing so you aren't doing anything wrong at all. You merely need to turn the Yamaha up. That doesn't mean the Yamaha is inferior to the Denon power-wise. Volume control settings between the Denon and Yamaha aren't likely to be the same and nor should you expect them them to be. What you need to listen for is distortion or clipping when you compared the too. If say, when you turned the Yamaha up higher to match the Denon's output, and then it sounded just as clean, then there is nothing wrong. It doesn't mean that the Denon is more powerful. They just have different traits or characteristics, like input sensitivity, that you need to be aware of and what that does.

So, we can only guess and make shotgun suggestions.

Many folks here have given you some good suggestions and some excellent advice. Here's one of them that you should heed:

Originally Posted by lojack1976

Bench marks should be taken with a grain of salt when looking at multichannel performance. Most modern receivers have protection circuitry that limits output when driving five or more channels, and these reviewers who benchmark them are using mono test tones that trigger the protection. Music and movie soundtracks do not trigger the protection so current is not limited in real world use.

Look at the two channel performance and you will see what you are going to get in most instances. Every channel is capable of the same output, but there are no instances where all channels will be driven to the max simultaneously. It should also be noted that different reviewers get different results at times since testing has no universal standard. Also, manufacturers typically rate their receivers with one channel driven, so their specs can be misleading.

Also, I've demoed several receivers over the last few weeks. I now own a Yamaha RX-V867 and I know first hand that it has plenty of power. I'm pushing 4ohm Martin Logan Preface speakers with ease. The 467 will have similar output. I've also demoed the Denon AVR-2311ci along with the Pioneer VSX-33 and Marantz SR6005 and the Denon had the least power of the three. It had to be turned up more to match the output of the Pioneer and the Marantz. This was real world testing with a variety of speakers including Martin Logan Motion 10's and 12's, and I know the 2311 is easily more powerful than the 591.

I don't know if you ran YPAO, but if you didn't then you definitely need to. After you run it you should also go back into the speaker menu and see if your front speakers are set to Small or Large. If they are set to Large then change them to Small to see if you get different results. When properly set up you should be getting much more output out of the Yammy than with that Denon.

I couldn't have said it better actually. The highlighted statements are right on.

The 2 channel power rating may give you an idea about the performance of an AVR 's or a dedicated power amplifier. But it needs to have more info though like being measured across 20 Hz to 20 Khz +/- x db with x % THD +n. But still, I only take such measurements for a grain of salt.

I think people get too hung up on power, and read too much into benchmark tests. Wow, they say which one has the most power. Give, give, give more power! Did you know that doubling the power, like going from 60 w to 120 w, only gives you +3 db increase (theorectically, all else being equal) in SPL? That isn't even twice as loud! Be careful when you compare power ratings. But do be careful that you know how much power you really need. Don't use a 60 wpc x 2 power amp to drive towers in a 5000 cu. ft. room! But in a 2500 cu ft room (20 x 15 x 8) it should do fine.

Take for example my Rotel RB 960BX power amp, rated by Rotel as 60 wpc x 2. WTF good is that you may ask? It's capable of high current output. It's damn good. Even when I turn the volume up to reference level, the sound is still clean and undistorted. Many of you who buy on the basis of power ratings would turn your nose up at such ratings as those. Yet the Rotel kicks arse. But you wouldn't know it from the benchmark tests. My unscientific testing with my Rotel 960 vs Adcom GFA 545 II (100 wpc x 2) driving the same speakers while listening to the same source, tells me that the Rotel sounds every bit as clean at very loud listening levels as the Adcom does. However, the Rotel drives my L/F towers. Why? The Adcom sounds lacking in the bass whereas the Rotel has good solid tight bass performance and detail with more foundation. The Adcom is powering my surrounds though. But that still doesn't mean that the Rotel is better than the Adcom. They both are excellent performers. I just prefer the Rotel driving my front towers because that combo has the kind of bass performance that I like. That is something the benchmark tests won't tell you!

[Gempulse]

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Yamaha+-...&skuId=9975954

Would that receiver have a lot more power?

Or this: http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-NR1601.../dp/B003R7KMQU

Also, I know this receiver doesn't sound as well as my Denon, I can hear it.. It's not as loud, the audio isn't as clear and the bass is pathetic compared to my Denon.