High Frame Rate Blu-ray?

[MediaMalable]

Someone recently told me that Blu Ray can't support the 48 frames per second rate that The Hobbit has been shot in. I'm trying to understand if that's true, and if so, why? My playstation 3 and television can play video games (off blu ray discs) that run at 60 frames a second. Why can't it display The Hobbit?

Help me understand!

[kpkelley]

My understanding is that Blu-ray can playback video from 1080p sources up to 24 frames per second and 1080i sources up to 60 frames per second.

This is part of the standard for blu-ray disc and player manufacturers. It's quite possible that the discs themselves could handle playback of 1080p sources at a higher frame rate, but they may not be able to be read by all blu-ray players. 3D movies are essentially being played back as 1080p/48, so it seems technically possible. The Hobbit however is also a 3D film, so that would be more like 1080P/96.

It will be interesting to see how they release this movie on home video.

[TheHighRoller]

Originally Posted by kpkelley

It will be interesting to see how they release this movie on home video.

This sums up how I feel about a home media release for The Hobbit (which I still have yet to see).

[vargo]

A format like Bluray can only work if there is a rigid standard specification. And 48fps is not part of that because it is not a standard framerate.

Same for TVs. They accept input resolutions and refresh rates that they were designed to accept. Nothing more.

Bluray supports high framerates such as 50fps or 60fps. But at these framerates the resolution must be lower. There are technical reasons for this. They have finite processing power, bandwidth, ref-frame memory etc.

[lobosrul]

The spec only allows 1080p up to 30fps (that is h.264 level 4.1). Do not confuse that with a players ability to output at 60 fps. I'm not exactly sure why 1080p/60 wasn't supported, looking back it was very shortsighted. My guess would be back when the spec was finalized that was about the limit of the hardware, at reasonable prices anyways.

Its almost certain IMO that The Hobbit will be released on BD at 1080p24. 48fps telecined to 1080i/60 is a possibility, but that would be a screwed up cadence, causing weird jutter most likely. 720p48 is "within" the spec, but not a standard framerate and would not be supported by any TV's even if a player could output it (which I doubt). I guess in 50Hz countries they could speed it up to 720p50, which would work, I just don't expect it to be done.

[BozQ]

I think lobosrul pretty much found the compromise. Without doing any revision to the current Blu-ray specs, the only way to achieve HFR 3D on BD is to encode the video at a speedup rate from 48fps to 50fps, @720p50, with SBS or TAB 3D.

Unless the reception for HFR and HFR 3D is popular, don't expect the Blu-ray committee to quickly revise the specs again.

Blu-ray adoption took long enough as it is, and we can pretty much get away with the 3D BD as a gimmick. But to try and sell HFR 3D BD to the common consumers is not going to be easy.

[joie]

Is 3D is being displayed at 48 fps?
I'd guess that it is 24 fps, alternating frames for one eye with frames for the other eye, which makes the effective frame rate 12 fps, but the brain's "post processing" makes it seem like 24 fps.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by joie

Is 3D is being displayed at 48 fps?
I'd guess that it is 24 fps, alternating frames for one eye with frames for the other eye, which makes the effective frame rate 12 fps, but the brain's "post processing" makes it seem like 24 fps.

The Hobbit was shot at 48fps in 3D. So that means either 48fps to each eye or 24fps to each eye unless they double the frame rate when they make the 3D "prints". It would not mean 12fps to each eye in any case. If that were the case even when movies are shot at 24fps, if you closed one eye while watching a 3D movie, you would have very jittery movement, somewhat like an old silent film that was shot around 16fps. That's not the case.

I suspect it's 48fps to each eye. If it were 24fps to each eye, we shouldn't see "soap opera effect" and there have been complaints from previews that "The Hobbit" does experience that.

[ronjones]

Originally Posted by joie

Is 3D is being displayed at 48 fps?
I'd guess that it is 24 fps, alternating frames for one eye with frames for the other eye, which makes the effective frame rate 12 fps, but the brain's "post processing" makes it seem like 24 fps.

First no one does 12 Hz per eye. When we talk about Blu-Ray Discs doing 1080p/24 Hz for 2D or 3D that means 24Hz for each eye. Blu-ray records both the right and left images of a 3D image into the same "super frame" at 24 Hz using "frame packing" encoding, as defined by the HDMI 1.4b standard. The Hobbit when shown in theaters advertising RealD (3D) HFR is displaying it at 48 Hz to each eye (that's why its called High Frame Rate). Even though most of the theaters with HFR compatible digital projectors are using projectors with 4K resolution the digital cinema input signal standard limits the 3D resolution to only 2K so it appears that what you are seeing in these theater is native 2K/48Hz 3D video that has been upscaled by the projector to 4K resolution for display.

[lobosrul]

Originally Posted by BozQ

I think lobosrul pretty much found the compromise. Without doing any revision to the current Blu-ray specs, the only way to achieve HFR 3D on BD is to encode the video at a speedup rate from 48fps to 50fps, @720p50, with SBS or TAB 3D.

Except, it won't work in N America, or Japan. Some TV's sold in 60Hz countries will accept 50Hz signals, but many will not.

[Anthony P]

Originally Posted by lobosrul

Except, it won't work in N America, or Japan. Some TV's sold in 60Hz countries will accept 50Hz signals, but many will not.

also the BD player could be an issue in those countries, so it is not just the TV

(not to play down the issue of speed-up which will deteriorate the sound and that we are talking 720p)

[kristoffer]

Originally Posted by AngelGraves13

The Hobbit release = releasing firmware updates for players and TVs to support 48Hz. If your TV does 24Hz, then it can do 48Hz. It's simply locked in the firmware because there's no use for it until now.

The Hobbit will likely be the first blu-ray disc with 48fps, so they will likely include it as a new standard since it will be catching on.

But only speculation right?

[nic727]

So no news about the next gen tv or bluray to feature 3D HFR or 2D HFR?

I would like to buy "The Hobbit - Collector Edition" in about 3 year in HFR version

That would be cool!

EDIT : Maybe PS4 and Xbox One could run HFR movie? Or it's just like the post before, a game is a game and not a movie?

[hazelwu]

Originally Posted by nic727

So no news about the next gen tv or bluray to feature 3D HFR or 2D HFR?

I would like to buy "The Hobbit - Collector Edition" in about 3 year in HFR version

That would be cool!

EDIT : Maybe PS4 and Xbox One could run HFR movie? Or it's just like the post before, a game is a game and not a movie?

At this time no PS4 nor Xbox One plays even Blu-ray 3D.

HFR BD most likely won't happen as it requires a new standard to be made (for both TV and player), and there's probably only 3 movies....

[BozQ]

HFR/HFR 3D would require a massive amount of storage space.
Each Hobbit movie is about 3 hours long. If you try to deliver HFR 3D on a BD, then it's equivalent to storing a 6 hour 3D movie on a disc.

50GB is probably not enough to store the movie. Or otherwise, the movie has to be split into two discs.

Either way, if there is any way the 3D HFR can be preserved on Blu-ray, I will get the trilogy in a box set.
Right now, I'm not too compelled to get the current 24fps Blu-ray.

[nic727]

Originally Posted by BozQ

HFR/HFR 3D would require a massive amount of storage space.
Each Hobbit movie is about 3 hours long. If you try to deliver HFR 3D on a BD, then it's equivalent to storing a 6 hour 3D movie on a disc.

50GB is probably not enough to store the movie. Or otherwise, the movie has to be split into two discs.

Either way, if there is any way the 3D HFR can be preserved on Blu-ray, I will get the trilogy in a box set.
Right now, I'm not too compelled to get the current 24fps Blu-ray.

I heard that new 4K bluray from Sony can store 100Gb... But I don't know if it's true, because I didn't hear about 4K bluray before.

[BozQ]

Originally Posted by nic727

I heard that new 4K bluray from Sony can store 100Gb... But I don't know if it's true, because I didn't hear about 4K bluray before.

No. There is no 4K Blu-ray.
You must have mistaken it with Sony's "Mastered in 4K" range of Blu-ray Discs.

At its core, the video is still 1080p, specially optimized for UHDTV. It isn't actually 4K like Sony would like you to believe.

Currently, we are nowhere near confirmation of any new format or an updated Blu-ray specs to support 4K or HFR content.

[BozQ]

Do note, my suggestion is merely an idea of delivering HFR 3D to Blu-ray without revising the current specs, at the cost of sacrificing 1080p resolution and audio.

In order to get Blu-ray to play 1080p48 in 3D probably requires a near overhaul of the entire system. From new hardware to storage medium and new HDTV standards. And other than The Hobbit movies, there isn't any other HFR 3D material that I'm aware for BDA to consider HFR 3D in their spec revision. Hell, they're not even done with 4K Blu-ray. Our only hope is probably James Cameron after he's done with the Avatar sequels and he starts pushing for the format.

As someone mentioned earlier, we'd sooner see HFR 3D content delivered digitally than in any home media format.

[BozQ]

If there's anyone, James Cameron has the power to push HFR to Blu-ray. Just as much as Christopher Nolan is able to push 15/70mm IMAX for Interstellar.

Previously, it was Avatar that helped pushed 3D BD. Now I'm counting on the Avatar sequels to push HFR 3D into the home theaters.

Unfortunately, this is not a simple matter. The TV itself must be capable of displaying 3D in 48 or 60 frames per second.

[Richard Paul]

Originally Posted by BozQ

If there's anyone, James Cameron has the power to push HFR to Blu-ray. Just as much as Christopher Nolan is able to push 15/70mm IMAX for Interstellar.

Previously, it was Avatar that helped pushed 3D BD. Now I'm counting on the Avatar sequels to push HFR 3D into the home theaters.

Avatar was part of a large wave of 3D movies and that has not yet happened with HFR. In my opinion for HFR to take off it would need a few dozen movies to be made in HFR.