Original Audio vs. Remixed Audio

[Blu-21]

When I say "Remixed Audio" I do not mean complete and utter overhauls like The Terminator or The Good, The Bad & The Ugly where the 5.1 audio mix uses and adds completely different sound elements from the orignal respective mono tracks, no, I mean faithfully, carefully made 5.1/6.1/7.1 audio mixes where the integrity of the orignal sound is still very much in tact but its just been given more space to breath with regards to opening up the sound stage and expanding things a little.

So even if crafted tastefully with the up most respect to the orignal sound design, if you could only pick one would you opt for the orignal 1.0/2.0/4.0 etc mono/stereo mix? or the newly created 5.1/6.1/7.1 etc DTS-HD mix?

FYI in this hypothetical scenario both tracks would be lossless..

[L'armée des ombres]

Both would be ideal

[Markgway]

Original always.

[isaacredfield]

Original for me

[HD Goofnut]

Give me the original mix. If a film was recorded in mono then I want the mono mix.

[obscurelabel]

I don't mind if there is a bump provided but the original should always be included. I don't know why this isn't always done, there's usually plenty of room for multiple audio files on the discs. I lived through the 1970s when many of the great mono recordings from the 1950s and 1960s were frequently available only in reissues with rechannelled stereo, which was horrible. The CD boom of the 1980s resulted in the restoration of original for just about all of these to mono, thank goodness. Just leave the original alone.

[I KEEL YOU]

Always original. I was thinking about this subject a lot because yesterday I was watching my newly bought Arrow release of The King of New York. The DTS mix sounded horrible, like everything on the screen was happening inside a giant cardboard tube. I don't know if the US release has the same mix, but it sounds like poop. Fortunately, it had the LPCM track that sounded 1000 times better.

The only time I would like a remix is if there were songs used in the soundtrack that used an ancient audio source, but if since then the song has been restored from a better source.

[blueman_Richie]

Original always. I don't want new sound fx or all encompassing audio if the film when made wasn't like that.

For years, the 'Vertigo' remix pissed me off (at least now there's an original mono option on blu-ray but only on the US release). 'The Exorcist' won an oscar for it's sound but we can't hear the ORIGINAL audio on any release to date.

'Grease' is the absolute worst offender though. The truly horrible remix done for the '98 re-release is now the de facto soundtrack and it ****ing sucks. If Paramount care at all, they're do another blu-ray for that with a whole new transfer and include the original audio mix from 1978 (and the original studio logos too). It'll never happen though I'm sure and another classic will sail on into history in a compromised, revised edition.

[Geoff D]

I understand your point Blu-21. I'd take a respectful multi-channel remix in lieu of any original audio option at all, but even so: if the original is on there then I'll default to that. Still, for Vertigo they redid the audio to be more faithful for the Blu-ray, and as the Euro disc doesn't have the mono at all the remix is the only option.

(I copied an old widescreen VHS of Grease to DVD just so's I could have some form of the original track to hand. I could do without the windowboxing of the titles on the Blu-ray too, the old DVD didnt have that!)

[meremortal]

This is one of my only gripes about catalog blu ray releases. The original mix should be included every time and there's usually plenty of space left on the disc for the inclusion of a DTS-HD mono or stereo track. I realize the average person with a home theater setup is used to the modern day "surround sound experience," but simpler is often better with older movies not mixed for a multichannel release. The contrasts can be subtle to quite different, but they are still different.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by meremortal

This is one of my only gripes about catalog blu ray releases. The original mix should be included every time and there's usually plenty of space left on the disc for the inclusion of a DTS-HD mono or stereo track. I realize the average person with a home theater setup is used to the modern day "surround sound experience," but simpler is often better with older movies not mixed for a multichannel release. The contrasts can be subtle to quite different, but they are still different.

It's more than that the modern six channel mixes are far from the original six channel mixes
Dialogue is always locked to the centre speaker and we get bloody near field mixes

[Blu-21]

Originally Posted by meremortal

This is one of my only gripes about catalog blu ray releases. The original mix should be included every time and there's usually plenty of space left on the disc for the inclusion of a DTS-HD mono or stereo track. I realize the average person with a home theater setup is used to the modern day "surround sound experience," but simpler is often better with older movies not mixed for a multichannel release. The contrasts can be subtle to quite different, but they are still different.

I heard that the orignal stereo mixes for older films from a certain period in time would have lots of dialog panning from left to right or vice versa bascially tracking the actor(s) on screen wherever they go. With modern remixes that dialog panning seems to be all but eliminated with all the dialog being locked to the middle speaker. So in a way the modern audio remixes of these tracks are more simplified which the more I think about is something that I don't like.

[dvdmike]

Originally Posted by Blu-21

I heard that the orignal stereo mixes for older films from a certain period in time would have lots of dialog panning from left to right or vice versa bascially tracking the actor(s) on screen wherever they go. With modern remixes that dialog panning seems to be all but eliminated with all the dialog being locked to the middle speaker. So in a way the modern audio remixes of these tracks are more simplified which the more I think about is something that I don't like.

Yep as I said above, same wiht multichannel releases, we get stuck with the bastardised near field mixes

[Dubstar]

Originally Posted by Blu-21

I heard that the orignal stereo mixes for older films from a certain period in time would have lots of dialog panning from left to right or vice versa bascially tracking the actor(s) on screen wherever they go. With modern remixes that dialog panning seems to be all but eliminated with all the dialog being locked to the middle speaker. So in a way the modern audio remixes of these tracks are more simplified which the more I think about is something that I don't like.

generally, yes mixers do tend to favor placing the majority of dialogue firmly in the center track, but occasionally a movie comes around and implements the left and right channels. What's more interesting is when mixers create and place voices in the phantom space between the center and left/right speakers - Pixar does this a lot notably in 'Toy Story 2'; this was also very prevalent in films that were mixed in front 70mm/6-track sound that had five speakers behind the screen.

[Geoff D]

^ Spartacus is an excellent example of that, as the 'phantom' screen channels are still there in the mix. But, as was said upthread, some later remixes of those 6-track films collapsed the directional dialogue into the centre.

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by Dubstar

What's more interesting is when mixers create and place voices in the phantom space between the center and left/right speakers

In Warner Archive's blu-ray of Billy Rose's Jumbo, the film opens with a character walking onto the stage. As he talks, the dialogue perfectly tracks the character from right to left as he crosses the screen and off as he exits. It's a very uncanny effect if you have a very large screen and perfectly balanced speakers.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by Blu-21

I heard that the orignal stereo mixes for older films from a certain period in time would have lots of dialog panning from left to right or vice versa bascially tracking the actor(s) on screen wherever they go. With modern remixes that dialog panning seems to be all but eliminated with all the dialog being locked to the middle speaker. So in a way the modern audio remixes of these tracks are more simplified which the more I think about is something that I don't like.

That's true for some 70mm 6-track films from the 1950s and 60s, EXCEPT that many of the films which claimed to be 6-track actually had a 4-track mix with Left and Center folded into stage channel 2 (Left-Center) and Center and Right folded into stage channel 4 (Right-Center). That's the reason why Dolby decided to make those two channels "baby-boom" channels when they released Star Wars in 1977. I don't have time at the moment to look up the exact details, but I believe that Lawrence of Arabia was actually 4-track and all but the last reel of 2001 was also mixed 4-track (LCRS).

For those films that were truly mixed in 6-track with panned dialog, remember that you can't really reproduce that listening environment at home because you don't have five screen channels in a home environment. (Unless you have wide fronts, but the tracks aren't mixed that way - that's a sound mode created by the pre-pro or receiver). So all six track recordings are remixed into 5.1 or 7.1. There are plenty of people who claim they want the original mix, but if the BD was released with a mono surround track, they'd freak out, but that's how those films originally played in theaters. Can you imagine if the original Star Wars films were released with mono surround?

Early multi-channel films from the 1950s and 60s did dialog panning to emphasize the stereo effects. Early stereo LPs did the same thing and this was eventually referred to as "ping-pong stereo" and it wasn't meant to be a positive attribute. You'll notice that for the last 20 years (at least) or so, musical recordings almost always mix the primary vocals in mono, along with bass and drums. In fact, aside from some sweetening (like a cymbal hit, a bit of guitar lead, etc), most modern recordings don't have much stereo to them aside from the echo return and some time delay.

So it's not really possible (and in some cases not desirable) to use the original 6-track mixes. Having said that, if home receivers started to support more than the height channels in Dolby Atmos, you could theoretically do a five-screen channel mix and home theaters which had those extra two front channels could replicate the original mixes more accurately. But having said that, also remember that it's a relatively small number of films (about 57 before the advent of "baby boom" and not all of those were actually 6-track) that had a 70mm 6-track mix in the first place and many of those 6-track mixes haven't survived and the 4-track mix was used for the Blu-ray anyway. (Not that you couldn't have panned dialog in a 4-track mix.)

One more point: I think that most of the people who claim to want the original mix are actually in denial. My bet is that they never listen to it, especially in the cases where the original mix is mono and there's a multitrack option. Also, just because it claims to be in 5.1 doesn't mean there's actually any audio sent to the surrounds and they may just take the mono and spread it across Left, Center and Right in mono, but the receiver light will still display "multitrack".

But I do think that any film originally released in mono, should always have a mono track option. Remember also that there were hundreds of films released in 35mm Cinemascope or similar formats that had 3- or 4-track soundtracks (LCR or LCRS), although they played in most theaters in mono, especially over time as theater owners found 35mm mag too expensive and bothersome to maintain.

[crissrudd4554]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

That's true for some 70mm 6-track films from the 1950s and 60s, EXCEPT that many of the films which claimed to be 6-track actually had a 4-track mix with Left and Center folded into stage channel 2 (Left-Center) and Center and Right folded into stage channel 4 (Right-Center). That's the reason why Dolby decided to make those two channels "baby-boom" channels when they released Star Wars in 1977. I don't have time at the moment to look up the exact details, but I believe that Lawrence of Arabia was actually 4-track and all but the last reel of 2001 was also mixed 4-track (LCRS).

For those films that were truly mixed in 6-track with panned dialog, remember that you can't really reproduce that listening environment at home because you don't have five screen channels in a home environment. (Unless you have wide fronts, but the tracks aren't mixed that way - that's a sound mode created by the pre-pro or receiver). So all six track recordings are remixed into 5.1 or 7.1. There are plenty of people who claim they want the original mix, but if the BD was released with a mono surround track, they'd freak out, but that's how those films originally played in theaters. Can you imagine if the original Star Wars films were released with mono surround?

Early multi-channel films from the 1950s and 60s did dialog panning to emphasize the stereo effects. Early stereo LPs did the same thing and this was eventually referred to as "ping-pong stereo" and it wasn't meant to be a positive attribute. You'll notice that for the last 20 years (at least) or so, musical recordings almost always mix the primary vocals in mono, along with bass and drums. In fact, aside from some sweetening (like a cymbal hit, a bit of guitar lead, etc), most modern recordings don't have much stereo to them aside from the echo return and some time delay.

So it's not really possible (and in some cases not desirable) to use the original 6-track mixes. Having said that, if home receivers started to support more than the height channels in Dolby Atmos, you could theoretically do a five-screen channel mix and home theaters which had those extra two front channels could replicate the original mixes more accurately. But having said that, also remember that it's a relatively small number of films (about 57 before the advent of "baby boom" and not all of those were actually 6-track) that had a 70mm 6-track mix in the first place and many of those 6-track mixes haven't survived and the 4-track mix was used for the Blu-ray anyway. (Not that you couldn't have panned dialog in a 4-track mix.)

One more point: I think that most of the people who claim to want the original mix are actually in denial. My bet is that they never listen to it, especially in the cases where the original mix is mono and there's a multitrack option. Also, just because it claims to be in 5.1 doesn't mean there's actually any audio sent to the surrounds and they may just take the mono and spread it across Left, Center and Right in mono, but the receiver light will still display "multitrack".

But I do think that any film originally released in mono, should always have a mono track option. Remember also that there were hundreds of films released in 35mm Cinemascope or similar formats that had 3- or 4-track soundtracks (LCR or LCRS), although they played in most theaters in mono, especially over time as theater owners found 35mm mag too expensive and bothersome to maintain.

I'm mostly referring to your last two paragraphs since I'm no expert in what you were referring to in the first three. I think the desire to have films a certain way stems from how people were initially introduced to the film and having watched that film that way over a certain period of time. I mentioned earlier that I dont like the surround mix done for Jaws and that stems from the fact that I had become accustomed to the mono having watched the film repeatedly on VHS. Same with Star Wars. My first trilogy was a VHS set of the originals which I had already watched countless times before watching the SE's. However I must admit to myself that had it been the other way around I would probably prefer the altered versions. Although its not always like this. Someone in the Star Wars thread mentioned having watched the original film when it played in 1977 and he much prefers the current version. So be bit. Nonetheless, I definitely agree with what you say in your final paragraph that an option for the original should always be added. I dont think I will be buying The Terminator on BD until the mono is reinstated! Fans should always have the option!

[Popcorn_Bliss]

Yeah, The Exorcist is a bit of a puzzle. I adore my Warner digibook but I'm not sure why the mono track wasn't included as well. These appear to be the ones we have so far...

Digibook (Director's Cut and Theatrical Cut) 2010 DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 ES
Single Disc Director's Cut 2011 DTS-HD Master Audio 6.1
40th Anniversary Set 2013 DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1

I assume the unusual 6.1 mix was the track used for the 1979 re-release (per IMDB). So I guess it's nice to have that one. Although, the 1979 release would have been the theatrical cut and not the director's cut (as it is on the 2011 blu). So I'm not sure if the 6.1 on the blu is the same as the mix used in 1979? Above all that, I'm not sure why the original track has yet to show up on any of these releases.

[BNex99]

Originally Posted by Popcorn_Bliss

That's true but the nice thing, in my opinion, about the set is that several/all options are available to us. I would always default to the original mono if suggesting one as a first time experience to someone, but the surround mixes are nice if you're looking for a fresh tweak to the audio experience.

Again, I haven't heard the disc myself, so I'm not sure, but apparently, the original mono is actually not on there. The mono track that is there is a fold-down of the 7.1 remix.

Originally Posted by Popcorn_Bliss

Yeah, The Exorcist is a bit of a puzzle. I adore my Warner digibook but I'm not sure why the mono track wasn't included as well. These appear to be the ones we have so far...

Digibook (Director's Cut and Theatrical Cut) 2010 DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 ES
Single Disc Director's Cut 2011 DTS-HD Master Audio 6.1
40th Anniversary Set 2013 DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1

I assume the unusual 6.1 mix was the track used for the 1979 re-release (per IMDB). So I guess it's nice to have that one. Although, the 1979 release would have been the theatrical cut and not the director's cut (as it is on the 2011 blu). So I'm not sure if the 6.1 on the blu is the same as the mix used in 1979? Above all that, I'm not sure why the original track has yet to show up on any of these releases.

Those three releases are all the exact same discs (obviously, the 2011 single-disc is just the extended cut). The extended version has a 6.1 track, while the original has a 5.1. I'm no authority, but here's what has been surmised on the dedicated Exorcist threads:

The 6.1 on the "Extended Director's Cut" is essentially the ground-up remix done for the 2000 theatrical re-release. A lot of extra sound effects throughout, and I think even a couple of different music cues.

The 5.1 on the BD Theatrical Version seems to be based on the original mono. It's practically mono anyway, just with some sound effects and music cues slightly expanded into the surrounds.

The 1979 remix was used on several VHS and laserdisc releases throughout the 80s and 90s, and also on the initial DVD in 1997. There are a few extra sound effects (though different from the 2000 remix), and some spatial effects on some of the demon's lines (such as "AND I'M THE DEVIL!").

Hope that helps!