Confusion on Atmos speaker layout configuration in 7.2 Onkyo receivers. Please help!

[Paulo Elias]

I have tried hard getting useful info about speaker layouts for Onkyo 7.2 Atmos receivers. Sadly Onkyo does not have a presence in my country, and the Onkyo official rep does not have the answer to the following:

7.2 Atmos AVRs from Onkyo may or may not have a separate speaker output for a pair of Atmos speakers, called Height Speakers in this case.

My current receiver has only one, and therefore it is automatically restricted to either 5.1.2 Atmos or 7.1.0 B with Surround Back speaker outputs.

Other models, including the new RZ units, feature separate Height and Surround Back speakers. So, you can connect all speakers but still restricted to 5.1.2 Atmos, since these are 7.2 receivers with only 7 power amps.

I read this info on an 7.2 Onkyo manual regarding speaker layout:

"You can connect both back speakers and
height speakers at the same time, but you
can only output audio from one of these at
a time."

Fair enough, since there are only 7 channels!

"When connected at the same time,
you can switch speakers to prioritize in the
Quick Setup menu that appears when you
press the Q button on the remote controller
(Speaker Layout function). For details, see
"7 Quick Setup menu" of "Step 3: Playing
Back"

And later, in the corresponding section:

"Speaker layout: Select the speakers to prioritize when
back speakers and height speakers are connected at
the same time."

All right then, but select what exactly? Which speakers will be "prioritized"?

Supposedly when you connect back and height speakers this setting would change 7.1.0 to 5.1.2 Atmos and vice versa automatically. They don't explain how this is accomplished though.

I have tried to find this info elsewhere. Onkyo does not allow residents outside their boundaries to send them an e-mail. I also asked for an American friend to help me out on this one. At this time he is doing whatever he can.

So I decided to post this thread here, in the hope that I find some of my forum peers to clarify this me.

Any help or input is deeply appreciated, and I thank beforehand anyone who is willing to help.

[schan1269]

Apparently you haven't actually bought the AVR yet.

On the AVR with 9 speaker posts(otherwise known as Intelligent Amp Design...yes, IAD is a feature) you go into the AVR menu and select the Atmos layout for EVERY Atmos movie you want played that way.

If...you put in a 5.1.2 setup and are not playing an Atmos disc...

DSU is a sound mode...just like IIz was.

[Scarriere]

It seems like you can switch between 7.1 and 5.1.2 on the fly. That's a pretty cool feature.

[Paulo Elias]

Originally Posted by Scarriere

It seems like you can switch between 7.1 and 5.1.2 on the fly. That's a pretty cool feature.

Ok, but how is that done? As I pointed out before regrettably the manual is not clear enough of what the user has to do to set the receiver to the automatic swapping of layouts.

[Scarriere]

Originally Posted by Paulo Elias

Ok, but how is that done? As I pointed out before regrettably the manual is not clear enough of what the user has to do to set the receiver to the automatic swapping of layouts.

I don't know, I'm going by what you quoted.

On my Yamaha, when I put an Atmos disc in, it automatically plays the movie in Atmos. If it isn't an Atmos disc, the yamaha plays the movie in DSU. Unless I want to pick Straight or any of the DSPs.

I'm not familiar with Onkyo, but I'd think that going into the menus and checking them out and learning your way around them is a good start. Are you able to download the manual? Having the manual while going into the menus would help for sure.

I don't understand why you would buy a product that has no support in your country? Aren't there other brands you could look at? Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer all have nice gear.

I hope you get this figured out. Good luck.

[Zhorik]

On the NR series with 7 speaker connection posts (excluding zone 2), you either connect your Dolby Atmos enabled speakers or the rear surround speakers at a time and can not switch on the fly.

On the RZ series, they contain additional posts allowing connection of the rear surround and the height speakers at the same time and switching from the quick set up menu (pressing Q on the remote > Audio > Speaker Layout).

Edit: I would advise against sacrificing a 7.1 base layer to go to 5.1.2 layout. Movies like Jurassic World that aggressively use the rear surround channels for dinosaur effects make those channels worthwhile.

[schan1269]

Originally Posted by Scarriere

I don't know, I'm going by what you quoted.

On my Yamaha, when I put an Atmos disc in, it automatically plays the movie in Atmos. If it isn't an Atmos disc, the yamaha plays the movie in DSU. Unless I want to pick Straight or any of the DSPs.

I'm not familiar with Onkyo, but I'd think that going into the menus and checking them out and learning your way around them is a good start. Are you able to download the manual? Having the manual while going into the menus would help for sure.

I don't understand why you would buy a product that has no support in your country? Aren't there other brands you could look at? Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer all have nice gear.

I hope you get this figured out. Good luck.

You don't have a 7 channel AVR. All 7 channel AVR, Atmos is not "automatic".

[Paulo Elias]

Originally Posted by schan1269

Apparently you haven't actually bought the AVR yet.

On the AVR with 9 speaker posts(otherwise known as Intelligent Amp Design...yes, IAD is a feature) you go into the AVR menu and select the Atmos layout for EVERY Atmos movie you want played that way.

If...you put in a 5.1.2 setup and are not playing an Atmos disc...

DSU is a sound mode...just like IIz was.

That's exactly right, and the current dollar value in Brazil has sky-rocketed, so I don't want to waste money on yet another Atmos AVR.

I understand that a 9.2 AVR would be the ideal setup for 7.1.2 Atmos, but it is too expensive for the time being, and that made me looking for alternatives.

Onkyo does not state clearly how will the user setup his receiver to achieve the automatic 5.1.2 vs. 7.1.0 layouts according to what is playing in 7.2 models.

I have been experimenting 5.1.2 with my current receiver, and I am also on the verge of finishing the assembly of a couple of Atmos enabled speakers. I am using BSA SAK6 drivers for the experiment. These are 20 degrees angled units, with a frequency response between 50 to 22kHz. They sound nice and are well built.

I am not willing to jump into conclusions as yet, but I got convincing results with these BSA speakers mounted on top of my L/R front speakers. It may not be the best for Atmos (4 speakers would be best) but I am not willing to mount overhead speakers for various reasons.

I could only pursue the replacement of my current Atmos receiver, namely the Onkyo TX-NR737, for another 7.2 model if, and only if, I could use the automatic speaker layout feature. Changing speaker layouts in the receiver's setup is quite annoying.

BTW, DSU in the 737 is compulsory! There are no provisions for disabling it. And why would I? The DSU does a remarkable job improving non-Atmos surround tracks.

[schan1269]

The thing here(which doesn't come up as often as the other two I'll mention) is you have an "issue" with no solution, where there is no reason, at all, to have one(issue or the solution).

How is the AVR supposed to know which layout you want used...unless you tell it?

Another common "issue"...

People complaining that AVR or speakers don't come with wire. Again, how are they supposed to know how much(50ft? 200ft?) and whether you need CL rated?

And not as common...

I want a BD player to play all regions without having to switch zones. Not. Ever. Going. To. Happen.

Some queries don't have answers.

[Paulo Elias]

Ok, let me quote again an information from the Onkyo site:

FOR 7.1 CHANNEL SPEAKER SETUP:

You can upgrade your system to Dolby Atmos 7.1.2 channels with the Onkyo TX-NR1030 9.2-channel AVR and a pair of Onkyo SKH-410 Dolby Atmos-enabled add-on speaker modules.

If you choose TX-NR838 and SKH-410, you can switch from Dolby Atmos 5.1.2 channels to standard 7.1 channel surround automatically, depending on selected surround modes, because TX-NR838 is a 7.1 channel AVR and has separate terminals for Surround Back and Height channels.

The idea is to connect both SB and Atmos at the same time, on separate and assigned speaker outputs.

My PC is fitted with a 5.1 pre-out. It can sense which plugs are connected or disconnected automatically. It might be reasonable to assume that an AVR could do something similar.

But, let's suppose it does not. The user can, nevertheless go to the speaker setup and enable or disable speakers by himself. Thus, if you connect and enable SB and Atmos, and according to Onkyo they can be automatically switched according to which sound track is being played that would be quite handy, wouldn't it?

If you take into consideration that 90% of the time we are dealing with electronics that must be programmed, and that programs will change as the manufacturer will see fit, features in a receiver can and in fact will change accordingly.

And in this case there is a subsequent information from the on-line manual that says explicitly that the user can "prioritize" speaker layouts (whatever that means), but when it comes to the options you will not find them in the correspondent section. Please note that there is no mentioning of an automatic switching of layouts on both Basic and Advanced manuals

That's why I started this thread, since I have no access to the NR838 settings!

I was hoping that people who use the NR838 would clarify this issue. Is it automatic or you have to follows a given path to switch layouts by yourself, and if so how exactly is that done?

In my last e-mail to Onkyo I asked the technician that question, but so far I have no answer. It is hard or inconceivable to assume that the manufacturer's support does not have an answer to a question that simple. It is also hard to understand that a manual points to a menu but that does not describe which options are included.

In my HT experience setup options are many times badly explained or not explained at all.

Back in the early days of Dolby Digital I was in another forum, when someone asked what was "dialnorm", because the word started flashing in his receiver display and he got angry on the lack of the explanation within the manual.

It so happened that I had downloaded and printed the entire Dolby Digital list of commands for the AC-3 (yes, Dolby was that generous back then), and thus it was up to me to explain that particular flag.

For many years everyone who would find something useful would immediately post in that forum, because access to information is always not easy to get.

[Paulo Elias]

Just for the record, and for those who are reading this posting still unaware of what Dolby Atmos is:

Since the beginning Dolby Atmos was described as an extension coded for both 7.1 Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus. It has a series of metadata that will let it adapt itself to the number of existing speakers. The adaptation process assumes that in the setup of the system proper Atmos or non Atmos speakers are enabled. In other words, it is not a sensing or guessing algorithm! And this, mind you, works for either theatrical or in the home applications.

The Atmos information in a regular, non Atmos built, speaker system, can be conveyed by virtualization, i.e. placing sounds in space where phantom speakers would be located. There is nothing extraordinary or new about that. Early home theater installations, for example were made without a centre channel, in this case derived from in-phase left and right front channels.

In real life, this is not truly black and white as we would had hoped:

The extension specification works fine. In fact, the first Blu-Ray disc with an Atmos track (Transformers) had two separate tracks, but that was not at all necessary, so much so that subsequent discs have now only one track. If the user plays them without an Atmos decoder the extension will be ignored, simple as that.

However, speaker layouts are still open for discussion:

Ideally, a complete Atmos system would work with 4 top ceiling speakers, in addition to Dolby Enabled or Height speakers. For many people that is not doable.

In addition, there is a justified on-going dispute about the dispersion characteristics of speakers dedicated to Atmos channels. Some experts claim that ceiling speakers are too directional and therefore predictable, and others claim that Dolby Enabled and Add-on modules are not fully capable to shoot sound to the ceiling and bring it back to the listener.

In theory, a perfectly capable 7.1, non-Atmos speaker layout is the minimum requirement for proper Atmos virtualization. The 7.1 array can be either fitted with Height (DPL IIz) or Surround Back speakers.

In the manual of my NR737 receiver Onkyo says that "either Height or Surround Back speakers are required", otherwise Atmos will not work. This means I can keep or install Surround Back speakers and still enjoy Atmos playback, in a "7.1.0 B" configuration.

In all of my preliminary experiments with both Surround Back (7.1.0 B) and Atmos Enabled Front (5.1.2) I was able to perceive sound in the upper space of the room, but NOT coming from the ceiling. Since I have no access to a theater with Atmos and no means to install top speakers I will never know if I am listening to the real thing.

At first listening the sound I am getting is pretty satisfactory, especially with my still to be finished Dolby upfiring speakers. I can listen to sounds above my TV set, and virtualization of spaces between speakers are impressive, and significantly better, when compared to, for example, 5.1 on-stage music mixing.

At this point I understand that I should not jump to conclusions as to dismiss Dolby Enabled speakers or to dismiss the efficacy of ceiling speakers.

Before Atmos I could listen to Foley effects, such as rain, off 5.1 mixings quite adequately. But now my NR737 features compulsory upmixing (Dolby Surround Upmixing), so comparisons can no longer be made.

All of the above is not restricted to Dolby Atmos. DTS:X is promising full 3D playback with the speaker layout in existence.

As enthusiasts or hobbyists we will be doing our best to experiment and find the truth. I for one who would be quite displeased to find out that all this 3D talking is just a figment of our imagination. Of course, I would like to give credit to Dolby, DTS, and Auro for what they are promising, and not tag their codecs as vapourware.

Only time and experimentation will tell if we are in the right track or not (no pun intended). A friend of mine is installing top speakers shortly. At this point I have a hope to gather some evidence as whether or not I should endeavour to do the same.

[Paulo Elias]

I got a message yesterday that I was long expecting from the Onkyo technical support, regarding the 7.2 TX-NR838, which has separate Back and Height speaker outputs.

I had asked about the Q Setup - Audio - Layout options that is accessible via remote.

Briefly, it says:

"Unfortunately all it would be able to do is switch between HEIGHT/SURROUND BACK for the 7.1 setup..."

In other words, there is no provision for an automatic switching between speakers, the command merely changes from 5.1.2 to 7.1.0 and vice-versa by selecting which layout the user wants to playback at a given time. The selection is available once both speakers are connected and enabled in the Home Setup speaker configuration.

Since I am using the NR737, which has a single output for both Back and Height speakers I initially thought that I could just implement an electronic switch. I haven't seen one of those for ages now.

I spoke to a friend of mine who was a studio engineer for more than 25 years, who said to me that a physical speaker switch is not compatible with a modern receiver speaker output and could in fact damage its circuitry. Well, that is a risk I am not willing to take.

In short, a 9.2 receiver, preferably with suitable set of pre-outs for expansion of the speaker array is the best choice for a decent 7.1.2 Atmos setup.

[Opips3]

if you use receiver amp for 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 cause lose power watts.

for as example 8 ohms raw power 160watts /2 channels. 8 ohms full power 220watts/1 channel.

mulit-channels 8 ohms 46 watts/ 5 channels or 7 channels.

you need a power amplifier is good enough.