How can anyone be sure about the original color timing?

[nikon76]

How can any consumer be sure about the original and proper color timing? I see a lot of posting about how this or that version is "off" or incorrect, but how can anyone be sure? Is it based on previous home video versions like DVD's? What if those were "off" or incorrect?

I'd imagine that unless an individual has the original print and a perfectly calibrated system;
-projector
-bulb
-glass
-eye sight tested by expensive Beverly Hills optometrist
-etc,

one could only guess and judge to their personal taste or call out a release with glaring color issues such as over tinting or bleeding saturation.

I've been curious about this for a bit, maybe someone could enlighten me, shed some light on it?

Is the bulb used in the projector warm or cold and how many hours of use can a bulb withstand before it starts rendering the scan too dim and not true to intended color?

What about the sensor of the scanner, or the lens used? How are the optics in the lens at reproducing color? Is there an industry criteria for such components included in the scanning process and if so, what are they?

[chip75]

As consumers we have to put our faith in the people transferring the films to home video, they should do their due diligence. That's either working with the original cinematographers and directors or comparing the source material (the inter-positive) after it's been colour correct for final printing. But opinions and memories change over time.

Versions available on home video are not considered reference quality and prints fade over time. Even theatrical experiences differ because of equipment (some theatres used to run the lamps at lower levels to save money), so they can vary from venue to venue.

Film scanners can differ, but there industry standards regarding colours and other things. I'd imagine they're kept at optimum performance during their operation and well maintained, but the technology improves just like any other. There is a difference in luminosity between a projector bulbs and the one's used in scanning equipment, but I'd imagine it's compensated for during the mastering process.

[obscurelabel]

It's difficult of course if it's an obscure film and no one who originally worked on it is around, and if original prints are faded or non-existent. Going by flesh tones isn't always right either if there were stylized color choices being made. I remember a DVDSavant review of the Buñuel's Death in the Garden where he talked about the color being faded or inaccurate, with most of the first half too yellow and the second half too red (or some other colors). Then a reader posted a contemporary article about the film, it reported that Buñuel had chosen to use yellow and red filters for different parts of the film!

Over at another forum, someone who worked for a big, reputable film processing lab in London back in the 1960s remembered that not all of the color film prints would come out the same, they reserved the best ones for the big London theaters, and the ones with wonky colors would be relegated to the sticks. So as has been noted, it was often a crapshoot even when the film came out originally.

[David M]

Originally Posted by nikon76

How can any consumer be sure about the original and proper color timing? I see a lot of posting about how this or that version is "off" or incorrect, but how can anyone be sure? Is it based on previous home video versions like DVD's? What if those were "off" or incorrect?

I'd imagine that unless an individual has the original print and a perfectly calibrated system;
-projector
-bulb
-glass
-eye sight tested by expensive Beverly Hills optometrist
-etc,

one could only guess and judge to their personal taste or call out a release with glaring color issues such as over tinting or bleeding saturation.

Consumers can't be sure. All professional mastering is done on calibrated equipment accurate to the video standards (D65 white point etc) and in cases where zero revisionism is the goal (clearly it isn't always), historical references will be used - answer prints are one example.

Is the bulb used in the projector warm or cold and how many hours of use can a bulb withstand before it starts rendering the scan too dim and not true to intended color?


What about the sensor of the scanner, or the lens used? How are the optics in the lens at reproducing color? Is there an industry criteria for such components included in the scanning process and if so, what are they?

Scanners are calibrated so there's no question of them discoloring the image unless they're set up to do that (almost inconceivable since in today's workflows any color manipulation is done after, not during, the scan). That process would tune out any distortions introduced by the sensor or any glass in the device - although these are very expensive pieces of hardware with tight tolerances, so those would be minimal to non-existant anyway.

Post production is generally very accurate - it's at the point of delivery, in the consumer's home, where everything usually goes to hell.

[oddbox83]

If reference materials exist from the time, then I think we can be sure. IIRC, this is the case for one of the two Amicus Dalek films. When restored by Studiocanal a few years ago, they had available colour reference material for one of the two films. I can't recall which now, but it has a different colour balance to the old Warner DVD yet is more accurate as they followed the reference. If it wasn't mentioned in the extras, I bet people would be arguing the old Warner DVD was more accurate....

Most genuine issues come about when going back to negatives for better quality, but not checking surviving release prints. While that's not as accurate as the above, it still gives a much closer indication of what kind of feel should be aimed for in the grading so should be given a little bit of leeway.

[Pecker]

A link to something Robert Harris posted on the topic:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/topi...rinting/page-1

Steve W

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by nikon76

How can any consumer be sure about the original and proper color timing? I see a lot of posting about how this or that version is "off" or incorrect, but how can anyone be sure? Is it based on previous home video versions like DVD's? What if those were "off" or incorrect?

I'd imagine that unless an individual has the original print and a perfectly calibrated system;
-projector
-bulb
-glass
-eye sight tested by expensive Beverly Hills optometrist
-etc,

one could only guess and judge to their personal taste or call out a release with glaring color issues such as over tinting or bleeding saturation.

I've been curious about this for a bit, maybe someone could enlighten me, shed some light on it?

Is the bulb used in the projector warm or cold and how many hours of use can a bulb withstand before it starts rendering the scan too dim and not true to intended color?

What about the sensor of the scanner, or the lens used? How are the optics in the lens at reproducing color? Is there an industry criteria for such components included in the scanning process and if so, what are they?

John Carpenters Halloween springs to mind it's never looked like Halloween since. I only know because I have seen it with the orange look to it and without.

[tenia]

It can be very difficult to know whether or not the original color timing is respected, because it all depends from many many things.

Reference people may have a defective memory. They might also want to tweak their movie for whichever reason.

There might not be anybody left to approve any end-result, and even a well-done project is subject to unfortunate mistakes and decisions due to the simple absence of references.

And of course, you'd need to watch the movie on something which does not disturb the color scheme of the movie.


However, there are older HD masters that have a magenta push and a contrast which is so widely used (it was done for old CRT TV purposes) that it's clearly not the original color timing. Because many older DVDs were timed for CRT TVs, one should avoid using them for comparison with newer BDs.

There are also newer HD masters which tend to always have the same color bias (there have been some French movies which were suddenly having a yellow deviation, there are also the FOX 4K resto like The Blue Max or Desk Set which look very blue).


But it's very difficult for the public to know whether or not it's respecting the original color timing. You would need a proper print properly projected to ensure a proper comparison. Almost nobody on Earth has the facility to do so.