Movies whose original elements are "lost"

[Bolty]

I wonder why certain movies don't have proper modern restorations. For some perhaps the "owners" don't feel that there is a payoff in restoring the movie -- of course I think of Star Treks 1, 3-10 where Paramount almost certainly has the original elements but won't cough up the money to restore them.

But other movies seem to have all or parts missing for a "perfect" restoration. The Thing (1951) supposedly is missing some of the original 35mm elements preventing a full restoration and they seem completely unwilling to either release the restored shorter cut or do a hybrid cut mixing the sub-par portions with the better elements.

Two of my favorites -- Forbidden Planet and Logan's Run have fairly average transfers for their latest releases and I have heard that the original elements for those two are lost. (I have no idea if that is fact.)

Clearly, "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World" -- had some elements missing and they did choose to make a hybrid cut.

So what are some other movies where the original elements are lost and we'll never get a proper Blu-ray -- let alone UHD of?

[Rzzzz]

[Bolty]

^ Oh really. I didn't know that. I sure would like to see that restored and put in HD/UHD. How could such a high-profile movie have lost the OCN or inter-positve or whatever the needed elements are to make a decent Blu-ray?

I get where out-takes and deleted scenes could be lost but the entire movie?

Or is that the problem -- they have some but not all of the needed footage?

I'd love to see all the epic movies in HD at least once.

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Rzzzz

[Show spoiler]

Thankfully, it's just the roadshow version that was lost or so I read a few years ago. The cut we have on DVD should have acceptable elements.

[thecalm_7]

Wikipedia has a nice list of films that are lost or incomplete. ‘List if incomplete or lost films’. Now it doesn’t say if OCN is lost, but it is a damn shame so many are lost.
A time machine would be so nice if only to preserve history.
If anyone is interested, the Hotel Indigo in Jacksonville FL is very film oriented, lots of pictures from the old Jax film studios and their low channel shows a great documentary on the early film studios of the area pre-Hollywood. Lists of excerpts from films.

[Rzzzz]

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Thankfully, it's just the roadshow version that was lost or so I read a few years ago. The cut we have on DVD should have acceptable elements.

I wonder if we will ever get a blu ray?

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by Rzzzz

I wonder if we will ever get a blu ray?

It's MGM so there's no telling.

[Rzzzz]

I read an article written by Robert Harris (wish I could find it) where he talks about how he tried to save it but couldn't because the studio let the film rot through total neglect and lack of caring. Pretty depressing....

[yellowcakeuf6]

Originally Posted by Rzzzz

I read an article written by Robert Harris (wish I could find it) where he talks about how he tried to save it but couldn't because the studio let the film rot through total neglect and lack of caring. Pretty depressing....

The problem with The Alamo (1960) is that when the picture was cut for General Release (after the Road Show run) the trims were destroyed. A Road Show print, with the missing scenes, was found in Canada in the '90s but apparently MGM may have let it rot. Robert Harris tried to get MGM to save all the existing elements, which were in very bad shape 10 years ago.
Now, I have seen a recent long version (not sure if complete) on MGM HD, which looks pretty good, so it must have gotten at least some sort of digital restoration. Harris wanted to save and restore the actual film elements, but MGM is mum on the subject, so who knows what condition they are in by now.
The link below is the article Harris wrote for The Digital Bits back in 2009 when he was actively seeking funding for the restoration, which MGM suddenly dropped the axe on back then, cutting Harris out of the loop.

https://www.thedigitalbits.com/site_...ris032009.html

[noirjunkie]

It's a very long list, with titles ranging from Citizen Kane through all of Fox's Technicolor titles.

However, just because the OCN is missing doesn't mean a proper restoration can't be completed. Stunning restorations have resulted from work based on interpositives or even prints.

[Bolty]

Originally Posted by noirjunkie

It's a very long list, with titles ranging from Citizen Kane through all of Fox's Technicolor titles.

However, just because the OCN is missing doesn't mean a proper restoration can't be completed. Stunning restorations have resulted from work based on interpositives or even prints.

But the review for Citizen Kane on Blu-ray from this site says the Blu-ray was restored from original elements and they give it a 4.5 for PQ? (for what that is worth.)

Originally Posted by Rzzzz

I read an article written by Robert Harris (wish I could find it) where he talks about how he tried to save it but couldn't because the studio let the film rot through total neglect and lack of caring. Pretty depressing....

Yeah, I just found a site where they talk about how MGM simply chose to let Alamo disintegrate to dust. It's almost criminal.

So some billionaire could buy the Mona Lisa (if the French were selling it -LOL) and then be allowed to destroy it -- because it's my property" --?

I'm not saying the Alamo is equivalent to the Mona Lisa -- but it is art.

And if I had to chose one to look at for 3 hours I'd pick the Alamo.

[Cremildo]

Originally Posted by Bolty

But the review for Citizen Kane on Blu-ray from this site says the Blu-ray was restored from original elements and they give it a 4.5 for PQ? (for what that is worth.)




Yeah, I just found a site where they talk about how MGM simply chose to let Alamo disintegrate to dust. It's almost criminal.

So some billionaire could buy the Mona Lisa (if the French were selling it -LOL) and then be allowed to destroy it -- because it's my property" --?

Agreed. Though it's not literally criminal, in my book it is, morally.

There should be a law protecting original elements of works of art from neglect - even neglect from their rightful owners. I can only assume there isn't one already, otherwise MGM wouldn't have been allowed to let the film rot and refuse third-party funding as a matter of dumb pride.

[noirjunkie]

Originally Posted by Bolty

But the review for Citizen Kane on Blu-ray from this site says the Blu-ray was restored from original elements and they give it a 4.5 for PQ? (for what that is worth.)

The use of "original" can be confusing in this context. When the review says "original nitrate elements," it's not talking about the original camera negative, which was apparently destroyed in a warehouse fire long ago. You can read about the Kane restoration here: link.

[I KEEL YOU]

Dr. Strangelove
Pierrot Le Fou
Barton Fink?

[Dailyan]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

Barton Fink?

Really? I'm surprised given that it's a more "recent" film.

[Rizor]

Originally Posted by Dailyan

Really? I'm surprised given that it's a more "recent" film.

Wouldn't surprise me considering the rough shape The Big Lebowski is in.

[Michael24]

Originally Posted by Bolty

The Thing (1951) supposedly is missing some of the original 35mm elements preventing a full restoration and they seem completely unwilling to either release the restored shorter cut or do a hybrid cut mixing the sub-par portions with the better elements.

The last I heard, when somebody posted an update from a WAC chat or something like that, is that they are still searching for the missing elements.

[JohnCarpenterFan]

The Hills Have Eyes
Dog Soldiers
Hell Night
The Mutilator

There are plenty more but they're not springing to mind.

[Markgway]

Some of the early Warner Oland Charlie Chan's.

[hoytereden]

Originally Posted by Markgway

Some of the early Warner Oland Charlie Chan's.

They were lost in the Fox Vault fire of 1937. I believe that four of the first 5 were destroyed with only The Black Camel still in existence.
MGM also had fire in '67 that destroyed a lot of films including the last known copy of London After Midnight.