Joker Spoiler/Theories Thread

[CyberpunkCentral]

Did Fleck imagine all that stuff up after he stop taking his meds? Did he ever truly meet Thomas Wayne? Were some of the characters ever real? Share us your thoughts and theories down below.

[Hazel Motes]

Thomas Wayne really did have an affair with Penny Fleck. Then, to cover it up he used his power and influence to systematically destroy her life, get her institutionalized, and drive her to the point of actual insanity.

She never changed her story. Batman and the Joker are brothers. Thomas Wayne is the real villain

[Zombo]

The entire film gives you a dose of doubt throughout...keeps you guessing what's in his mind and what isn't. It's actually brilliant for a film based on this particular character.

The relationship with the neighbor was definitely all in his head with the exception of the elevator sequence, following her and the final confrontation in her apartment.

The whole 7 shots in the subway makes you wonder if all the shots were real, just some of them...or any of them.

The final hospital scene with the case worker that " looks like " the case worker from earlier in the film makes you wonder if any of it was true or not.

Personally, I think that the majority of the film did happen ( although maybe not exactly how Arthur perceived it to happen ) and the hospital sequence in the end was where he ended up after the riots. Only now...he's embraced who he really is and awaiting the opportunity to get out.

He now has a real world reason to hate Bruce. Bruce was given the best life by Thomas Wayne, while in Joker's mind....Arthur was banished and forced to live in poverty with a mother driven crazy by Wayne's cover-up and lied to him.

[Cherokee Jack]

Originally Posted by Hazel Motes

Thomas Wayne really did have an affair with Penny Fleck. Then, to cover it up he used his power and influence to systematically destroy her life, get her institutionalized, and drive her to the point of actual insanity.

She never changed her story. Batman and the Joker are brothers. Thomas Wayne is the real villain

Agreed. Phillips surely closed out the Penny story with a shot of Arthur crumpling a photo of her that includes an admiring note signed 'TW' on the back for a reason.

I love the characterization of Thomas Wayne as a villain in Joker. The benevolent titan of industry angle used previously is boring and unrealistic. It also adds extra weight to his murder at the end: he is in large part responsible for the creation of Joker and thus also the 'clowns' Joker inspired, including the one who kills him and his wife. I've seen that some people don't like the inclusion of that moment but it works very well if you see Thomas Wayne as central to the film's narrative.

[drush9999]

My theory:

Joaquin Phoenix is not "The Joker", hence the title "Joker" without the definite article

[EvaDK]

"For my whole life, I didn't know if I really existed. But I do and people are starting to notice."

The whole film summarized in one quote.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by drush9999

My theory:

Joaquin Phoenix is not "The Joker", hence the title "Joker" without the definite article

My theory is this:

The Real Joker from the Batman films(Nolans are the only ones that matter) has NO backstory and was never intended to have one. Why they have to go and try to *splain* everything with concocted backstories just sucks. Its better to NOT know. Giving the Joker an origin kills his intrigue and negates Alfreds comments about how some people just want to "watch the world burn".

Oh well. Too late now.

[Steedeel]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

My theory is this:

The Real Joker from the Batman films(Nolans are the only ones that matter) has NO backstory and was never intended to have one. Why they have to go and try to *splain* everything with concocted backstories just sucks. Its better to NOT know. Giving the Joker an origin kills his intrigue and negates Alfreds comments about how some people just want to "watch the world burn".

Oh well. Too late now.

That was one interpretation. There is space for others. This was the best film of the year so far for me and I loved TDK.

[Zero_Cool]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

My theory is this:

The Real Joker from the Batman films(Nolans are the only ones that matter) has NO backstory and was never intended to have one. Why they have to go and try to *splain* everything with concocted backstories just sucks. Its better to NOT know. Giving the Joker an origin kills his intrigue and negates Alfreds comments about how some people just want to "watch the world burn".

Oh well. Too late now.

You’re acting like Nolan’s films and Joker are in the same universe.

[Zillamon51]

Originally Posted by s2mikey

The Real Joker from the Batman films(Nolans are the only ones that matter) has NO backstory and was never intended to have one. Why they have to go and try to *splain* everything with concocted backstories just sucks. Its better to NOT know. Giving the Joker an origin kills his intrigue and negates Alfreds comments about how some people just want to "watch the world burn".

1.) Nolan's entire first film is all about giving Batman one of those dreaded backstories.

2.) Joker is in no way presented as a prequel to the Nolan films. Phoenix and Ledger are not portraying the same character.

[DarkEco910]

Originally Posted by drush9999

My theory:

Joaquin Phoenix is not "The Joker", hence the title "Joker" without the definite article

This. My theory is that it could still tie into the DCEU somehow (or perhaps The Batman) in that Fleck instigated the riots that would give birth to the actual The Joker whilst he himself remains institutionalized.

[joshsquash729]

I never really doubted that any of it happened, though parts could perhaps be a little over-aggrandized due to his mentally unstable nature. I think Thomas did have an affair and covered it all up, which is an interesting take to the Waynes that I kinda dig. That said, I do also think he was abused by his mom's boyfriends, which is probably what put him into the mental hospital in the first place. I do think he killed his neighbor, or else those sirens we heard would be coming for him. Never noticed the 7 shot thing, but I may just chalk that up to a movie mistake, if anything. I think they may have played that aspect up more if they wanted it to be part of his psyche.

[kylor]

I felt like the movie intentionally threw me for a loop since at the beginning it briefly flashed Arthur being in Arkham Asylum previously. Yet when Arthur visited the place to get the records of his mother, the guy didn't recognize him, and he had to ask how someone got in there?

Why would he need to ask how someone got in there, if he had already gotten in there before?

This is why my theory is that the whole backstory was indeed in his head within Arkham Asylum. I think he was replaying it all in his head but to the woman interviewing him in Arkham Asylum, it just looked like he was staring into space and laughing.

I could well be wrong but, there's a discrepancy in the writing when he asks how someone gets into Arkham Asylum since the movie shows at the start that he's been there before.

[Creed]

I think it's mostly real, while I also think that Fleck spared Sophie's life.

Thomas having an affair with Penny is definitely likely, IMO.

[ronboster]

As far as what's real or imagined by Arthur:

Two scenes I think were imagined were the scene with his mother (pillow) at her bedside. Several details stood out. He was smoking in the her hospital room (remember the earlier scene of him being approached by the cops for questioning). Arthur was outside the hospital smoking (the viewer it lead to believe he had to go outside to smoke). The fact no one came in to tell him to stop smoking stood out to me. Second point when he smothers her, we don't hear the monitor's alarm going off to designate her heart stopped, yet the audience is to believe he killed her. Last point, he turns to the light from the window shining on him....no code red from nurses, techs or doctors while he looks out the window and basks in the sun light.

Second scene also involved both bright lights from the room and the glow of sunlight streaming in the windows: The final scene with psychologist in the asylum and the subsequent walk down the hall and (key stone cop-ish) chase by the orderly. Was the asylum ever shown as so clean and so white in previous scenes and the glow of the sunlight streaming through the windows, all suggest what we are seeing is not real.

I'd have to see the film again to know if there were other scenes where strong sunlight was a dominate characteristic in the scene.

Feel free to correct me, if any of my details (from memory of seeing just one time) are incorrect).

Ron

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by ronboster

As far as what's real or imagined by Arthur:

Two scenes I think were imagined were the scene with his mother (pillow) at her bedside. Several details stood out. He was smoking in the her hospital room (remember the earlier scene of him being approached by the cops for questioning). Arthur was outside the hospital smoking (the viewer it lead to believe he had to go outside to smoke). The fact no one came in to tell him to stop smoking stood out to me.

This movie was set when smoking in hospitals, planes, anywhere really, was still acceptable practice.

In total, I liked this movie, however I don't think it's as deep as it some people want it to be. The Thomas Wayne angle I thought was pretty heavy-handedly explained as real (Wayne's version, where Penny is crazy) by the hospital scene where Arthur reviews her records and learns about her hallucinations. It gives you a concrete piece of evidence to support that version of the story. Also, it provides even more reason for Arthur to feel like he's nothing, as his mother subjected him to abuse over a situation that wasn't real in the first place, thus subjecting him to the trauma that gives him his laughing condition and overall mental issues.

[ronboster]

Originally Posted by BStecke

This movie was set when smoking in hospitals, planes, anywhere really, was still acceptable practice.

.

I assumed it stopped prior to the 80's, but after seeing your post I got curious:


https://www.workingnurse.com/article...d-in-Hospitals

You are correct.

[BStecke]

Originally Posted by ronboster

I assumed it stopped prior to the 80's, but after seeing your post I got curious:


https://www.workingnurse.com/article...d-in-Hospitals

You are correct.

Yeah, it's kind of weird to think that not THAT long ago it was accepted to that degree. I'm a nurse and obviously we get a ton of old folks who come in for lung issues related to smoking. It's sad because a lot of people now look at it like, oh you should've known better, but back then they really didn't.

[UniSol GR77]

My scenario:

In 1981, Arthur Fleck is 30 years old (canonical), but looking considerably older than that for many reasons.

Bruce Wayne is 12 years old.

If Bruce becomes a "proto-version" of Batman when he is 25, then Arthur/Joker would be 43 by then. Sounds proper for a Batman vs Joker scenario.
When Batman is 30 years old, Joker would be 48.
That's totally plausible.

[Damon1281]

Originally Posted by BStecke

Yeah, it's kind of weird to think that not THAT long ago it was accepted to that degree. I'm a nurse and obviously we get a ton of old folks who come in for lung issues related to smoking. It's sad because a lot of people now look at it like, oh you should've known better, but back then they really didn't.

Actually we did, we just didn't care. Warnings on labels came as early as the mid 60's. We just lived in a time where there was freedom to dig your own grave.