BR vs HD DVD Showdown

[ra1024]

I'm still astounded that with BR having superior disc capacity and bitrate than any of the enthusiasts would be so in favor of HD DVD. I don't understand how a true enthusiast would favor equipment with lesser capabilities. It seems their only counter to this is to argue that HD DVD's bitrate and capacity are "enough" for HD content and the additional capacity BR has doesn't show any noticable difference.

It seems that this would be easy to confirm or dispute with a simple encoding challenge of a difficult or detailed scene. I've seen hints of this sort of challenge but I've never heard of it actually taking place. Is there any reason this sort of challenge hasn't been done?

It would be great to settle this once and for all and either acknowledge that HD DVD is acceptable or determine that it is not "transparent to the master". My gut feeling is that Amir/MS would decline to participate but if that happenned, at least BR could always use that as evidence they know their format is inferior. Whether they participate and lose or refuse to participate, the end result would be the same. Does anyone know if this has happenned and if not, why it hasn't?

[Blu-Ray Buckeye]

Good idea.

I too am surprised when people say it is good enough. I am even surprised when they base major purchase decisions on how the movies look "right now". The overwhelming majority of movies that any of us will buy on the next format are still yet to be made or encoded. The "potential" quality of blu-ray, for the exact reasons you named, is far higher. The current quality is close to a push but the upside belongs 100% to blu-ray. The same is true of PS3 games versus 360 games. How can you commit to a format for the next decade based only on what exists right now?

People are stupid and shortsighted.

[kjack]

I would think that wanting to kill off either format before it has reached it's full potential would go against the grain of a true enthusiast. Can't do an apples to apples comparison to make a good decision otherwise.

[JTK]

I can give you all a perfect example of what it looks like when someone literally believes word for word the FUD and misinformation out there.

It goes something like this (and yes, these comments were directed at me personally):

This conversation today on another forum was in regards to the firesales that Toshiba has been having through Amazon and the rest of it:


Me:
Doesn't the super low costs of the Toshiba players combined with 5-7 or so HD-DVD disc giveaways look like a firesale to you?

It certainly does to me and, yes, I'd say the same thing if I saw it happening on the BD side.

Yes, the prices look great. Yes, the spike on Amazon sales and what not looks great, but to me? That looks like a firsale to me all the way.

There's no way Toshiba can keep burnin' it like that long term. They have shareholders to answer to like anyone else.

Him:

Sorry but I do think I'm being objective here.

As a consumer, I care about Toshiba's shareholders....for what reason? For $237 I can get high-def DVD and at the least a solid upconverting player. That's only a few pennies over what Oppo is charging for an upconverting player that doesn't play ANY HD at all. What risk is there as a consumer?

And they're not going to be keeping the retail that low: the promo is for a specified amount of time, that Amazon price was good for about 24 hours, and the rebate moves to the other machines next week (the XA2, which people love, and the A20, which I have and can highly recommend).

Secondly, I am curious why you keep using the term "firesale." We know there are more -- a LOT more -- standalone HD-DVD players in the marketplace than Blu Ray machines. We know neither format is really making great inroads, and we also know manufacturing costs ACROSS THE BOARD are lower -- a lot lower -- for HD-DVD players and discs.

Whatever margin Toshiba is losing on these still isn't near what Sony is losing on the PS3. I'd bet it's not even comparable. It's the same reason why there are persistent rumors of cheap Chinese HD-DVD players -- the costs are substantially less for HD-DVD so it is realistic. Why anyone thinks those players (when/if they materialize) are going to be Blu Ray machines is laughable when we know the inherent expense of the format.
It's going to be a long while before we see "cheap Blu Ray players". The PS3 might drop $100 but even then you are still talking about a $500 unit.

It's about costs. Blu Ray can't do a promo like this, but the inherently more inexpensive costs of HD-DVD make it possible.

Along those lines: you do still really, honestly feel that Blu Ray is a superior format? And for what reason? If you want to tell me it's only because Panasonic and Samsung and Sony are making their machines, I think the XA2, A2 and A20 pretty much show how reliable these products are.

Again, I don't understand why it is better for anyone other than Sony fanboys and PS3 owners as to how Blu Ray "winning" is going to benefit anyone (other than those camps) when there is a product in the marketplace that is just as good in terms of performance and it DOESN'T COST AS MUCH to produce or buy.

It's simple logic to me. But if you feel Blu Ray discs look or sound or have more content than HD-DVD discs in general, then I just cannot agree.

He's being a tool

Me: On the other hand, you can look at what Disney has done thus far...that's how ya do it right! Smile Their discs have just been fantastic all the way around!

Him:

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. The PIRATES discs are indeed fantastic, but how many of their titles had dropped special features in comparison with their SD counterparts? Looks like things are changing now, but it was not that way with most of the discs they brought out up until a few weeks ago.

and

In terms of discs, I haven't seen any inherent advantage to Blu Ray over HD-DVD. Have you?

Me:
Exclusive content.

Him:

So technically, visually and otherwise, you at least concede that there is no difference in terms of picture quality and sound between these formats?

If that's the case, again, why support the format that costs X3 as much to the consumer to purchase?

If it's only because of studio support, that can easily change once companies see if there's been a bump in player support and movement. I remember a time when Fox and Disney had no intentions of releasing DVDs but rather DIVX discs. Once they saw where consumers were heading they changed their tune. Who's to say that's not going to change here also?

On and on and on...

This guy is kind of a friend of mine so I'm trying to be very polite and restrained, but honestly, if I respond to this crap the way I want to it's probably not going to be very civil. I'm just sick and tired of this stuff.

This is someone who's never early adopted anything before so he thinks he's hit the big time now and he believes all of the FUD on AVS since it supports his decision to buy into HD-DVD. You all know the drill.

[ra1024]

Originally Posted by kjack

I would think that wanting to kill off either format before it has reached it's full potential would go against the grain of a true enthusiast. Can't do an apples to apples comparison to make a good decision otherwise.

Since both formats are essentially the same in terms of what video/audio files they can contain, the real potential boils down to capacity. I'm not aware of anything video or audio wise that can be put on HD DVD and not BR. The only place I would see your argument applying to is interactive content where they are truly different.

Anyways I didn't want this to be a rant thread so much as a discussion of the feasibility of ending the debate about HD DVD's specs being adequate. If the HD DVD side argued "yes, your format can deliver better PQ but ours has better interactivity", I would have more respect for their views. It would then be about whether PQ or interactivity was more important. As it is now, they say their format has both.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by ra1024

Anyways I didn't want this to be a rant thread so much as a discussion of the feasibility of ending the debate about HD DVD's specs being adequate. If the HD DVD side argued "yes, your format can deliver better PQ but ours has better interactivity", I would have more respect for their views. It would then be about whether PQ or interactivity was more important. As it is now, they say their format has both.

I believe their base argument is that Blu-ray hasn't shown the capability to deliver a significantly better PQ enough to justify the difference in price.

But, I'm not sure why they then conclude that it can NEVER do so. AND that the capacity will never be used for things that might intrigued them. AND that lossless audio on most releases isn't desirable.

Gary

[jubaiweaponx]

you say tomato I say to mato ,lol

[ra1024]

Originally Posted by dialog_gvf

I believe their base argument is that Blu-ray hasn't shown the capability to deliver a significantly better PQ enough to justify the difference in price.

I was thinking more about this recently after reading an account of some things said on the HT cruise.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...postcount=2948

I don't know if this account is accurate but it wouldn't surprise me based on what I've seen on AVS. It sounds like Joe Kane as well as Amir have been attempting to convince people that HD DVD actually has better PQ. I guess that's why I'd like to see some clear proof one way or the other.

[dialog_gvf]

Originally Posted by kjack

I would think that wanting to kill off either format before it has reached it's full potential would go against the grain of a true enthusiast. Can't do an apples to apples comparison to make a good decision otherwise.

Agreed. I know people (and retailers) absolutely despise the format war. But, I am sure Blu-ray is better (and being pushed to become even better still) by it.

But, the flip side is that the battle causes shelf space issues for discs at B&M retailers, and keeps many consumers on the sidelines (a problem for studios).

Gary