The entire Process

[morymb]

Hi, I'm looking for information on the entire process of how a film is transferred. I was hoping to maybe get some points in the right direction concerning this. My biggest curiosity is in how the studios/distributors would copy the film print into a "master" to be endlessly duped for the home video market. I am also curious as to the differences between these masters as time goes by. What kind of format these masters are on; i.e - what kind of master fora VHS release back in 1985 as opposed to modern day. What format? Tape? Must've been, right? All this kind of stuff I am very interested in. I know that sometimes a blu-ray is made using the original film, but I am more curious as to how a lot of transfers occur using an older master/newer master. What is this master? And what is the technical process of transferring these masters to VHS, DVD, and BD? Any docs out there? Thanks very much!

[morymb]

I should have asked;

back in 1983, how did they make masters? What kind of high end(?) video cameras were used to record the film to tape?


Ive since wisened to modern film scanning to hard drives and thanks!

[42041]

Originally Posted by morymb

I should have asked;

back in 1983, how did they make masters? What kind of high end(?) video cameras were used to record the film to tape?


Ive since wisened to modern film scanning to hard drives and thanks!

The film would run through a telecine, which used photomultiplier tubes to convert the image on the film into electric signals, and would be passed through some console where the technicial could manipulate the image and then it would be recorded to tape (Betacam, for example). A reverse CRT TV, if you will.
Back then, it would be analog tape. Nowadays it's usually HDCAM-SR or pro-res.

[bailey1987]

Originally Posted by morymb

Hi, I'm looking for information on the entire process of how a film is transferred. I was hoping to maybe get some points in the right direction concerning this. My biggest curiosity is in how the studios/distributors would copy the film print into a "master" to be endlessly duped for the home video market. I am also curious as to the differences between these masters as time goes by. What kind of format these masters are on; i.e - what kind of master fora VHS release back in 1985 as opposed to modern day. What format? Tape? Must've been, right? All this kind of stuff I am very interested in. I know that sometimes a blu-ray is made using the original film, but I am more curious as to how a lot of transfers occur using an older master/newer master. What is this master? And what is the technical process of transferring these masters to VHS, DVD, and BD? Any docs out there? Thanks very much!

Picture a giant VCR, that's it.

[morymb]

Originally Posted by 42041

The film would run through a telecine, which used photomultiplier tubes to convert the image on the film into electric signals, and would be passed through some console where the technicial could manipulate the image and then it would be recorded to tape (Betacam, for example). A reverse CRT TV, if you will.
Back then, it would be analog tape. Nowadays it's usually HDCAM-SR or pro-res.

Ah, thanks very much!

[Wendell R. Breland]

Originally Posted by morymb

back in 1983, how did they make masters? What kind of high end(?) video cameras were used to record the film to tape?

IIRC, Rank Cintel was the leader in film scanners during that period. IMO, end to end process is way beyond the scope of a thread. There are forms and threads that cover certain aspects of the production process (like color grading, Foley work, dubbing stages, etc.). Been retired several years now and just follow a few consumer forums. Do not have many professional sites bookmarked anymore.

[Bueller]

I was going to make this type of thread, but saw this. When transferring for DVD, were HD masters made, in the same way 4K masters are used for standard Blu-ray?

I saw Amazon Prime has Problem Child in HD. The DVD was 4:3 and it's not on Blu-ray. Does anyone know how this sort of case comes up, assuming it costs a considerable amount of money to make an HD master.

[42041]

Originally Posted by Bueller

I was going to make this type of thread, but saw this. When transferring for DVD, were HD masters made, in the same way 4K masters are used for standard Blu-ray?

I saw Amazon Prime has Problem Child in HD. The DVD was 4:3 and it's not on Blu-ray. Does anyone know how this sort of case comes up, assuming it costs a considerable amount of money to make an HD master.

Yes, that was pretty common. Most early blu-rays were masters made long before blu-ray.

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by morymb

Hi, I'm looking for information on the entire process of how a film is transferred. I was hoping to maybe get some points in the right direction concerning this. My biggest curiosity is in how the studios/distributors would copy the film print into a "master" to be endlessly duped for the home video market. I am also curious as to the differences between these masters as time goes by. What kind of format these masters are on; i.e - what kind of master fora VHS release back in 1985 as opposed to modern day. What format? Tape? Must've been, right? All this kind of stuff I am very interested in. I know that sometimes a blu-ray is made using the original film, but I am more curious as to how a lot of transfers occur using an older master/newer master. What is this master? And what is the technical process of transferring these masters to VHS, DVD, and BD? Any docs out there? Thanks very much!

History buff, eh? If you have a serious passion for learning about the entire process, then there are some good old books (cira 2001 and such) available on the cheap from Amazon to aid your research/study, I would recommend, e.g.…. http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Postprod.../dp/0240805062 ,
which even gets into more esoteric topics like telecine drift.

On a historical note, with regards to film transfer equipment and the earliest of Blu-ray movies (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-55910367.html ), the master for the very first (original) Blu-ray release of The Fifth Element was generated by using a flying spot telecine, whereas the Remastered version was derived by harvesting the IP with a film scanner.

[morymb]

Originally Posted by Penton-Man

History buff, eh? If you have a serious passion for learning about the entire process, then there are some good old books (cira 2001 and such) available on the cheap from Amazon to aid your research/study, I would recommend, e.g.…. http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Postprod.../dp/0240805062 ,
which even gets into more esoteric topics like telecine drift.

On a historical note, with regards to film transfer equipment and the earliest of Blu-ray movies (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...-55910367.html ), the master for the very first (original) Blu-ray release of The Fifth Element was generated by using a flying spot telecine, whereas the Remastered version was derived by harvesting the IP with a film scanner.

Thanks for that, I will look into it!

[filmgrainiac]

I'm interested to know more about this as well...

[Penton-Man]

Originally Posted by filmgrainiac

I'm interested to know more about this as well...

http://www.amazon.com/Film-Technolog...ost+Production

[KrugStillo]

You may find this interesting. On the indie side (and I mean cheapo indie side) of things this is how I have found that it works. Let's say you shoot your film and you are now going to edit and color grade and whatnot using modern software (Final Cut, Adobe Premiere, AVID, Etc.). What do you do with it once it's finished? I had this very problem so I asked Don May Jr. of Synapse (I am a Facebook friend and he is pretty forthcoming with the industry details if you ask him) what format do I output to? I was using Adobe Premiere and not Final Cut so it was a bit trickier. Final Cut has a file format called Quicktime Pro Res that most indie filmmakers will output their masters to. You then just dump that file onto a Harddrive and make your DVD and Blu-ray files from that finished color graded and mastered file. Anyway for Adobe Premiere I needed an equivalent and I was told that I should use a Quicktime uncompressed file of some sort. The key was 10-bit uncompressed. Now these are huge files. We are talking terabytes in some cases so you need a clean harddrive for back-up and should have more than one for safety. It can get costly with the drives at an indie level. Anyway I eventually worked it out and figured out the file I needed to make (for me I used an AVID codec in the end that was compatible with Adobe). It's interesting too because the quality of the finished file is virtually identical to the footage from your editing timeline in whatever program you use. In short on the indie level and with a modern digital workflow you deliver a harddrive with some sort of uncompressed file (pro res and the like) that is used to then make everything else from. Now making this file can take up to 2 days straight of running your computer depending on the processor and whatnot. I have found though that 24 hour process times are actually pretty standard for this sort of thing. Some companies do this even with actual films that have been transferred from 35mm. I guess this is mostly the way that it's done now. I'm no industry insider just an indie filmmaker who had to figure this stuff out on his own. I hope I got most of my info correct and you find this interesting.

[ZoetMB]

Originally Posted by KrugStillo

I was using Adobe Premiere and not Final Cut so it was a bit trickier. Final Cut has a file format called Quicktime Pro Res that most indie filmmakers will output their masters to. You then just dump that file onto a Harddrive and make your DVD and Blu-ray files from that finished color graded and mastered file. Anyway for Adobe Premiere I needed an equivalent and I was told that I should use a Quicktime uncompressed file of some sort. The key was 10-bit uncompressed.

Interesting considering that Quicktime is an Apple developed format and you were using that from Adobe. What was the exact file format that you output from Premiere? Can you give us the file settings? Those are key.

The 24-hours doesn't surprise me. I'm constantly amazed (and frustrated) by how long it takes for even iMovie to process a 5-minute file and then to write it out to disc and then to upload it to YouTube. Obviously, upload times are independent of the computer, but I wonder how much faster it would be if one used a computer equivalent to a well-equipped Mac Pro with huge memory and multiple processors (not a MacBook Pro).

[KrugStillo]

Originally Posted by ZoetMB

Interesting considering that Quicktime is an Apple developed format and you were using that from Adobe. What was the exact file format that you output from Premiere? Can you give us the file settings? Those are key.

The 24-hours doesn't surprise me. I'm constantly amazed (and frustrated) by how long it takes for even iMovie to process a 5-minute file and then to write it out to disc and then to upload it to YouTube. Obviously, upload times are independent of the computer, but I wonder how much faster it would be if one used a computer equivalent to a well-equipped Mac Pro with huge memory and multiple processors (not a MacBook Pro).

No problem. What I ended up using was an Avid DNxHD Codec. I downloaded it for free from Avid's site. It's a plug-in for Adobe. You can go 1:1 or use a slightly compressed version. For my purposes the slightly compressed version was nearly identical and about 250 GB when finished. The settings basically match whatever your timeline settings are. For me it was 1080i/29.97 square pixels, lower field first. There is a small box under the codec option that allows you to set it at different Rec709 settings. I use 1080i/59.94 DNxHD 220 10-bit. That seems to be the closest match to my footage. Their is however a quicktime Uncompressed YUV 10-bit 4:2:2 setting that I tried (this was actually what Don May told me to use). These files are monstrous and I found it to have a weird gamma shift. Not sure if the DNxHD is industry standard but it does the same thing and opens in most editing programs I've seen. I found that a file made from the DNxHD file had pretty much identical quality to a file made directly from the timeline. Just in case programs change I needed a master for future use that was complete with audio. The audio on the file is 2 channel PCM uncompressed cause that's what I had anyway. I imagine it would work with a pcm 5.1 as well. Plus in response to your comment about a fast processor can imagine you could cut the time in half with a lightning fast processor depending of course on the length and shooting format of your film. I hope this is what you wanted to know.