Where's the 7.1 master audio?

[Darth Lavender]

Commenting a little further on 5.1 vs 7.1, while 7.1 might actually be able to offer more specific placement of sounds, I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. Someone mentioned earlier, watching 'War' in 7.1 and his reaction to the sound of breaking-glass behind him. While that is pretty darn cool, in and of itself, it seems like the kind of thing that would completely break one's involvement in the movie.

[mrhonda2]

The biggest misconseption is that you need a gymnasium sized room, according to the "experts" and those in who go by the book in forums just like this. I have 7.1 in a 14X12 and movies sound amazing to me and isn't that the point? Just think only a few short years ago how many fewer people had 5.1, and even most people without HT could care less about 5.1. 7.1 on the disc would futureproof many of us in here right now who have or will eventually upgrade. Also, even though I prefer DTSHDMA(being equal on paper vs real life even with the extra 4db, DTS still sounds better than Dolby), where the heck is Dolby 7.1? You know other than the upcoming Sleeping Beauty and Finding Nemo. I read an earlier post about someone who has 7.1 with 7.1 movies and have yet to listen to them!? I call BS because that is the very first thing you do when you are set up for it.

[Seiko1]

Originally Posted by mrhonda2

The biggest misconseption is that you need a gymnasium sized room, according to the "experts" and those in who go by the book in forums just like this. I have 7.1 in a 14X12 and movies sound amazing to me and isn't that the point? Just think only a few short years ago how many fewer people had 5.1, and even most people without HT could care less about 5.1. 7.1 on the disc would futureproof many of us in here right now who have or will eventually upgrade. Also, even though I prefer DTSHDMA(being equal on paper vs real life even with the extra 4db, DTS still sounds better than Dolby), where the heck is Dolby 7.1? You know other than the upcoming Sleeping Beauty and Finding Nemo. I read an earlier post about someone who has 7.1 with 7.1 movies and have yet to listen to them!? I call BS because that is the very first thing you do when you are set up for it.

Bravo!!!!!
If my 7.1 was a girl it would be shagged to DEATH by now (Yamaha RX-V757)

[Seiko1]

Originally Posted by GeneD5

since this thread already exists I am going to throw it out there... does the 7.1 add a lot to the rear soundstage?

"You don't miss what you've never had" applies here 100 percent.
It never occured to me that there was a hole in my soundfield until I could switch between 7.1 and 5.1 (all my 5.1 are played with extended surround now to make fake 7.1) Sounds Magnificent too

[MatintheHat]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Where did the information that Disney is producing 7.1 films come from?

Our theatrical print of Wall-E was in DTS-ES which is 7.1. I don't know if Dolby EX was on it or not.

[MatintheHat]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

My issue with the whole 7.1 push is that the movies aren't initially mastered in 7.1, so what's the point? ... movies are mixed initially for the theatrical run where there's no such thing as a 7.1 mix. Actually SDDS has a 7.1 configuration, but it uses five speakers across the front, so its worthless for transferring to disc for home theatre use. Some studios see value in remixing the soundtrack for 7.1 home theatre configurations... others don't. It's that simnple.

DTS-ES and DOLBY EX are 7.1 theatrical mixes. Somewhere on the DTS Theatrical Release website is a listing of movies released in DTS-ES. I seem to remember Dolby having a similar listing but that was some time ago.

What sux is that Lucas pushed heavily for theatres to invest thousands of dollars into the Dolby EX system for Episode 1. (The theatre I'm at now bought into it because they would have been denied the rights to show the film otherwise - so I'm told.) Now look - Lucas' Indy 4 wasn't even a 7.1 release and it's rare that anything is in ES or EX.

[mrhonda2]

Maybe all that is needed are a few big releases in mono and see how long it takes for people to cry it's not in 5.1. So what, some movies aren't mastered in 7.1. If the 7.1 mix sounds even slightly better than 5.1 then it was worth it. Studios should be utilizing BD potential. I'm sure everyone here can at least agree that PQ and AQ first, then put the rest of the crap on it. Just so many people that respond, to me at least, sound like just cause you don't have it(7.1) then it is not needed. Besides more 7.1 justifies buying all of the gear to the wife

[PeterTHX]

EX/ES are not true 7.1

They are semi-6.1 channel systems where rear surround information is encoded (matrixed) in the L+R surround channels and decoded into a center surround channel which is then played thru the suround back speakers. DTS-ES discrete pre-decodes the surround back channel and is encoded discretely. Whether this is preferable to the decoder extracting it is up for debate since the ES method filters from the surround channels...it is not truly discrete.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

EX/ES are not true 7.1

They are semi-6.1 channel systems where rear surround information is encoded (matrixed) in the L+R surround channels and decoded into a center surround channel which is then played thru the suround back speakers. DTS-ES discrete pre-decodes the surround back channel and is encoded discretely. Whether this is preferable to the decoder extracting it is up for debate since the ES method filters from the surround channels...it is not truly discrete.

I thought the only DTS-ES format for theaters was a matrixed one and not a "discrete" one. Either way, like you said, these aren't 7.1 mixes. They're matrixed 6.1. I think it's important for people to realize that and not start spreading rumors that these films are in 7.1 sound.

[ClaytonMG]

Originally Posted by mrhonda2

Maybe all that is needed are a few big releases in mono and see how long it takes for people to cry it's not in 5.1. So what, some movies aren't mastered in 7.1. If the 7.1 mix sounds even slightly better than 5.1 then it was worth it. Studios should be utilizing BD potential. I'm sure everyone here can at least agree that PQ and AQ first, then put the rest of the crap on it. Just so many people that respond, to me at least, sound like just cause you don't have it(7.1) then it is not needed. Besides more 7.1 justifies buying all of the gear to the wife

Again, you're not hearing what we're saying. 7.1 can be acheived the same way by using either PLIIx or THX processing.

Again, yes, the 7.1 speaker layout is important. Notice how theaters are even set up that way? They do that to fill the auditorium with sound. Not because "it sounds cool," but because it helps with the movie experience. The theaters that upraded to Dolby Digital Surround EX/DTS ES are still using the speakers they installed for those formats. It's not like they installed them and just went "well these wont be used except for a couple times a year." They installed them knowing full well that only certain films would require that extra channel to be matrixed, but for the films that aren't they work with the side channels.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by ClaytonMG

Again, you're not hearing what we're saying. 7.1 can be acheived the same way by using either PLIIx or THX processing.

Can it? Can it really?

PCM uses a set bitrate: 4.6(?) or 6.9 mbps for 5.1 soundtracks.
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA use a variable bitrate.

With PCM, you have a certain amount of bitrate. Is that bitrate then divided among the speaks equally? If so, wouldn't a DISCRETE 7.1 soundtrack be a higher bitrate than a 5.1 soundtrack? If so, wouldn't your rear speakers have a higher bitrate ("Lossless") than a 5.1 "Lossless" soundtrack MATRIXED to 7.1?

~Alan

[mr.hidef]

Originally Posted by Seiko1

Bravo!!!!!
If my 7.1 was a girl it would be shagged to DEATH by now (Yamaha RX-V757)

Shagging the 7.1............oh I like it!! Don't scab up your knees now!!

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

Can it? Can it really?

PCM uses a set bitrate: 4.6(?) or 6.9 mbps for 5.1 soundtracks.
Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA use a variable bitrate.

With PCM, you have a certain amount of bitrate. Is that bitrate then divided among the speaks equally? If so, wouldn't a DISCRETE 7.1 soundtrack be a higher bitrate than a 5.1 soundtrack? If so, wouldn't your rear speakers have a higher bitrate ("Lossless") than a 5.1 "Lossless" soundtrack MATRIXED to 7.1?

~Alan

Yes. Titles like The Descent (6.1 PCM) have a higher bitrate and a title like War with 7.1 PCM has even higher still. That's one reason Lionsgate switched to DTS-HD MA to save space because they like to reprocess those 5.1 soundtracks for 7.1.

For those interested, The Perfect Storm is the first BD title I'm aware of to be flagged Dolby TrueHD 5.1 EX! Kudos to Warner for not shorting the lossless track when the lossy track is 5.1 EX, even though it's not noted on the box. I wish Disney had switched to TrueHD sooner so titles like the Pixar and the Pirates of the Caribbean films (which are EX) would have been flagged that way as well.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Yes. Titles like The Descent (6.1 PCM) have a higher bitrate and a title like War with 7.1 PCM has even higher still. That's one reason Lionsgate switched to DTS-HD MA to save space because they like to reprocess those 5.1 soundtracks for 7.1.

Then wouldn't those titles have SUPERIOR audio (in the rear speakers) compared to a matrixed version?

~Alan

[davcole]

I'm still wondering where are the TRUEHD tracks over 6 channels?

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by davcole

I'm still wondering where are the TRUEHD tracks over 6 channels?

The Final Countdown (Blu-ray)

The Nightmare Before Christmas: Collector's Edition (Blu-ray)

Wonder no more!

~Alan

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by davcole

I'm still wondering where are the TRUEHD tracks over 6 channels?

As Gordon noted they are coming soon.

I also have a nifty Dolby BD with both 7.1 TrueHD (96kHz!) and Dolby Digital Plus 7.1

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

Hannah Montana & Miley Cyrus: Best of Both Worlds Concert (Blu-ray)

Supposedly this is 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio, based on one review where they don't always look properly at the specs & what is decoded.

[Alan Gordon]

Originally Posted by PeterTHX

Supposedly this is 7.1 DTS-HD Master Audio, based on one review where they don't always look properly at the specs & what is decoded.

Whoops! I forgot the HDD review (as I really didn't pay much attention to it)...

It does make one wonder if "A Nightmare Before Christmas" will truly be a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack...

~Alan

[PeterTHX]

Originally Posted by Alan Gordon

Whoops! I forgot the HDD review (as I really didn't pay much attention to it)...

It does make one wonder if "A Nightmare Before Christmas" will truly be a Dolby TrueHD soundtrack...

~Alan

\


What didn't make sense to me was:

Disney doing DTS-MA in the first place, after showing full support for TrueHD & PCM.
Doing it only 16-bit and for a NEW, recent title and a MUSIC oriented one at that.

Maybe someone else authored it for them than their usual film titles.

[Yeha-Noha]

Originally Posted by Davekyn

The primary reason 7.1 is used, is for LARGER listening areas & that is it! Marketing is going to benifit with the sale of extra speakers & cabeling so it's in thier best interest to make out as if your going to get some new listening exsperiance out of it, or in fact that you need it....HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA....iT'S ALL A CROCK OF &^%$.

In fact...you can actually do more damage than good by using 7.1 in a room that does not need it. MOST homes do not need 7.1. I would even go as far to say, that most serious Home Theater enthusiasts with a newer 7.1 amp use a 5.1 speaker setup unless in a room large enough for it.

I believe it will be some time, before its practical to change the current 3/2/1 recordings...try studdying more un "Surround Sound 101" and you will understand just how useless 7.1 is in the average home & how it's really only hype for the avaerage Joe.

It's a bit like people saying 1080i PQ sucks....hehe...They miss the point completely

I disagree that 7.1 is useless in average sized home depending on how you define average size. The average J6P home size these days is around 2500 sq ft which should be just fine for 7.1. Remember the surround back channels handle most of the effects above 100 Hz. So these speakers don't need to be large or overwhelming in size. In fact, they can be inconspicuously mounted in the back wall. If your room is big enough for an average 5.1 system properly set up, you can probably set it up for 7.1 too. I think more people will start converting their 5.1 system to 7.1 when there are more 7.1 BD movies being released than there are currently.

I would agree that 7.1 has no benefit if one puts the couch against the back wall and the surround back speakers are above it. In fact, that wouldn't work well for 5.1 either. The sweet spot or normal seating position should be at least a bare minimum of 3 - 5 ft from the surround back and surround side speakers. The fronts can be a greater distance away. My fronts are about twice the distance from the couch as the surround backs are. Equidistant from all speakers would do very well too. In fact that would be ideal.

Be careful bashing 7.1 surround because you are in effect bashing Blu-ray at the same time. Blu-ray has made it possible for anyone to enjoy lossless 7.1 audio. There will be more 7.1 movie releases. Give it time. The new BD players are now able to either decode or bitstream DTS-HD MA 7.1. The studios didn't release many PCM 7.1 movies because of the large amount of BD space that gets used up. As more people buy the newer BD players capable of handling all the lossless audio formats, there will be more 7.1 BD movie releases. The growth curve will be slow at first which is normal.

It's not hype. It's real sound. I could care less that you don't like it or think it has no place in HT. Thanks to Blu-ray, it's here for the rest of us to enjoy.