Lossless Audio, Speakers, and Psychoacousitcs

[prerich]

We all love the new codecs to some extent, but how many people are really hearing the real difference - not just a difference? One part of psychoacoustics is that a louder presentation usually sounds better to most people. Now the truth about all of this lossless stuff is that more detail should be revealed beause of the increased bit rate. The log-jam for this is the speakers used for reproduction. If you are using speakers that can't resolve this level of detail - doesn't the benefit of lossless audio become mute (kinda like listening to 192khz/24 bit music with cheap Dollar Tree earbuds ) this goes for all lossless.
Now that the Lossless codecs are here to stay, and LPCM is definately leaving - shouldn't movie fans concentrate of obtaining speakers capable of resolving such detail? We tend to focus on technology (DAC's - which component is doing the decoding but in the end - if your speakers are inept, weak, and well....cheap - I'm not saying inexpensive - there are inexpensive products that handle very well) doesn't it just kill the whole purpose of having lossless audio? It would be like telling someone with a Citation 7.0 system that your Lossless audio coming from your tv speakers sounds better that his rig thats only analog .

What is the next step in educating people in technology? I believe that tech for the sake of tech is just a toy, but tech that is maximized and properly implimented becomes useful, and easier to sell . Lossless audio without proper equipment at the reproduction statge (namely quality speakers) is just technology with unrealized potential. Don't just settle for - "It's louder so it must be better - or It's digital and lossless so it must sound better than any lossless analog system". Realize the true potential of your lossless surround by getting speakers that will resolve the detail and reproduce the enitre frequency range. Chime in and let me know how you feel.

[Big Daddy]

I agree with you about quality speakers and sufficient power to drive them. However, many people believe that lossless audio is over rated. Most people are more than satisfied with Dolby Digital & DTS Digital and have no idea what lossless means. It would help people to read this article about a group of experts that visited Dolby Labs and DTS headquarters and had a difficult time distinguishing between the different lossless and lossy audio codecs.

"Neither Geoff nor I could hear any differences between the original PCM track and the TrueHD version, which should be the case, as they’re bit-for-bit identical.

Next, we compared the original to the Dolby Digital Plus version (that codec is found on numerous BD titles, and like TrueHD, is fully backward compatible with regular Dolby Digital decoders). Even on this extremely high-end system, we couldn’t hear any difference between the uncompressed and the compressed. Then, we compared the higher bitrate (640 kbps) that is found on the Dolby Digital tracks on Blu-rays to the original. "Golden Ears" Morrison was able to hear the difference, but I, and most others in the room with us, did not. Each of us had our turn in the prime listening chair, and couldn’t know the origin of the clips or their order of presentation.

The shocker came when we compared the lower 448 kbps Dolby Digital DVD bitrate to the original. There was an audible difference, but it was only ever-so-slightly noticeable (and this is with a high end audio system in an acoustically controlled environment that is so far beyond what typical home theater systems are capable of resolving). There was just the slightest decrease in presence with the DD version, not exactly a softening of the sound, but just a tad less ambience and a similarly small tightening of the front soundstage’s depth. Quite a remarkable result, I thought, and I was highly impressed with how much fidelity can be packed into such a relatively small amount of bitspace. If I was doing actual scoring, I would have awarded a 4.8 grade to the results I heard – the audible difference was that subtle."

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...PCM?page=0%2C0

[Barnum]

Speakers are important but don't under estimate the receiver/amp as a major player in the output quality. Many people look for the cheap receiver and speakers and you will get what you pay for. The cheap receivers add tons of harmonic distortion and clip at low levels of volume because of cheap power supplies in the unit. I don't mean to say that you need to spend your lifes savings but going cheap can and WILL sacrifice sound quality. I often find it entertaining when people state that their $350 Yamaha or Onkyo receiver sounds the same as a $2000 receiver made by Denon, Krell or others. There really are reasons for these to cost more money and name is not the main reason.

Then there is speakers. Just because the speaker says that it can handle power from a 300 watt am does not mean that it will do it well. I challange anyone to buy a $300 speaker system and say it sounds as good as 600 series B&W speaker system.

To really be able to hear a noticeable difference it is going to require a good investment in sound. HTIB is not the answer. I know that many can not afford more I still feel and reviews can defend this that HI-FI you get what you pay for.

[cravnsn]

Isn’t also incumbent on the listener to actually “listen” for the differences? I would say that for most people, if they can make out the dialogue and some sound effects, that’s all that matters.

Since I’m into photography (and worked many years of retail), I liken it to pictures. Most people take a picture of their kid, and if the end result looks like their kid, they’re happy. People who are really into it however will look at resolution, color balance, lighting, composition…etc.

Even if the high end speakers & equipment reveal the extra creaking of a floor board, if you’re not listening for it, you may miss it. If someone listens to a mid-fi system, and the same soundtrack on a high end system, they’re likely to report hearing no discernable difference. Alas, it is we “audiophile” types who strain to hear every last detail, and spend a lot of time & money to squeeze every last bit of resolution out of our equipment.
To be honest, I envy those who are OK with decent sound, and can actually enjoy the movie.

[mdabb]

I'll have to reread that article as I only skimmed over it but I have a few of the same movies on both DVD and Blu and the difference is more than noticeable. Like "Pan's Labrynth" and the latest "Bond" for example.

I also agree "inexpensive" doesn't mean "cheap" but usually the better speakers do cost a bit more. I see a lot of people allocate more of their money to media than they do to equipment. DVDs and Blu's add up and a lot of people out there could have really nice gear if they thought about it. Instead the "this will do the job" approach is the way they go. This doesn't apply to people who don't have the "room" for proper speakers though. We all have to live inside a box and some boxes are smaller than others so restraint is varied. Then again there are some really capable bookshelf/monitor sized speakers out there.

I blame it on the convenience of the IPOD for the acceptance crappy sound. Ever since it came out all people care about is 50,000 songs in the palm of your hand. A lot of people listen to MP3's in the home as well. Music isn't music anymore so maybe the lossless Blu offers will rebound the audio lover in all of us. The AQ side of a movie will offer a better experience than the PQ side but they need each other.

Music is dead so all we have left is movies and those days seem limited. It is Art and we are lacking the appreciation and originality of it and the need for it.

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by mdabb

I also agree "inexpensive" doesn't mean "cheap" but usually the better speakers do cost a bit more. I see a lot of people allocate more of their money to media than they do to equipment. DVDs and Blu's add up and a lot of people out there could have really nice gear if they thought about it. Instead the "this will do the job" approach is the way they go.

That was me...the collecting lots of software, instead of getting the speakers. Fortunately, I came around

But yes, I agree with the idea that people should look into better speakers, and not just settle. But with the entire idea of instant gratification, I honestly don't see the current trend changing.

[prerich]

Excellent comments everyone ! Barnum (that's why I only use the Yamaha as a prepro it doesn't have the horse power to affectively run my home theater as I would like so I use outboard amps). Big Daddy excellent research! Cravnsn - good analogy!!! Mdabb, you are correct - but music is not dead yet. As long as there is someone who cares - we will still get good music (but it may come at a premium). And I too wish that people would allocate more money to their equipment. Having a bunch of BD's, most of which you won't watch more than once - being payed back on a mediocre system doesn't make fiscal sense at all. Why not have fewer BD's that you will watch over and over again - played back on the best system you can get?

How do we educate people to this principle, or as Cravnsn put it - there are people who are just satisfied. Do they need education? Is ignorance truly bliss? What started our audio obsession? Does the increase of knowledge bring sorrow or truth?

The subject of the lossless codecs can bring about an abundance of sonic truth - but many will not like the truth. The truth sometimes hurts. What do you guys think?.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

Alas, it is we “audiophile” types who strain to hear every last detail, and spend a lot of time & money to squeeze every last bit of resolution out of our equipment.
To be honest, I envy those who are OK with decent sound, and can actually enjoy the movie.

Thats part of the enjoyment with me My wife is a lover of decent sound - (when she could operate my system and she would mess with a setting I could instantly tell - she thinks everything goes through the PC now {thats another good thing about a HTPC - its a good intimidation factor} now she doesn't even attemp to touch it ) I however, in the days before my PC, would have to stop a movie 30 seconds into it because a setting had been moved. She told me it sounds good to her but I couldn't take it!!!!
I see what you mean (but after being bombarded with sound geekness and singing in a choir with me - my wife is actually getting good ears and noticing things like me!!!! That's real fun !!!!)

[Beta Man]

Originally Posted by prerich

Is ignorance truly bliss?

Financially?? ABSOLUTELY!!

As far as "allocation of funds" For those who collect for the sake of collecting, the actually presentation of the movie isn't as important as how it looks on the shelf

I tend to buy a lot of movies, but I won't buy anything that I won't watch a minimum of 3 or 4 times.... and many get watched a lot more than that!

[cravnsn]

I’m always surprised when I’m browsing the aisle for the one or two movies I do want to buy, and there are people there looking through every movie asking each other “have you ever heard of this move – is it supposed to be any good?”

Are these people completely unaware that they can be renting instead of buying?

[cravnsn]

I would also encourage people to take time out to just sit, close their eyes and listen. Really tune into all the sounds around you, at work, at home, while out & about…and listen to live music. Not a typical rock concert where the sound is amplified & equalized into a huge mess, but acoustic instruments. The sound a trumpet, acoustic guitar, piano…etal. make while in a recording studio is quite different than a piano in a bar, in your home, on a stage…and so on. It’s likely that even with a good recording & good equipment to play it on, the live sound will always be different than the reproduced recorded sound.

You don’t even have to go to any great lengths. Last weekend, my wife and I took our kids to a playground. There were other kids plying there, a family off playing a pickup game of soccer, and two of the moms off to the side chatting. I took the time to close my eyes, and just listen. There was a fair amount of wind, and yet I was still able to pick up on subtleties of inflections in peoples voices, directional cues & such. Then I started to think about scenes in movies where the actor speaking was in an outdoor environment. Naturally, the sound was very different. Of course, in a movie, the actor is mic’d and so the whole of the soundscape is different. What this made me realize is that we are at the mercy of the sound recorder & engineer when it comes to what we hear coming out of our speakers. How well (or not) they do their job largely dictates what we can & can’t hear.

[MPDIEHL]

Words cannot express how over due this thread is.
I completely agree with each and every post, I have gotten very tired of the questions asking for the cheapest of everything that will do 7.1 lossless.
The nuance of the sound is so easily lost with inferior equipment, the entire chain must be balanced. Source, Preamp/Processor, Power, Speakers, as well as the fragile connections between them.
I still feel a good DolbyDigital or DTS 5.1 system will outpreform the "I have to have Lossless 7.1 at the lowest cost".

[richteer]

Originally Posted by prerich

How do we educate people to this principle, or as Cravnsn put it - there are people who are just satisfied. Do they need education? Is ignorance truly bliss? What started our audio obsession? Does the increase of knowledge bring sorrow or truth?

I think it is mostly a matter of education. Most people are simply unaware of the joy a high end audio system will bring, although judging by some readers' comments, some people would rather dismiss the notion that better sound is possible because of the expense and/or it conflicts with their limited views. *Shrug*

OTOH, there are people who, having heard a high end system, get the bug and realise that they can get so much more out of the music and movies. In other words, not everyone who is blissfully ignorant is incapable of approaching AV Valhalla (the home of the gods, not the Nordost cables!) once they've been shown the way. It is the job of us enthusiasts to do the latter.

[Intamin]

Originally Posted by prerich

How do we educate people to this principle, or as Cravnsn put it - there are people who are just satisfied. Do they need education? Is ignorance truly bliss? What started our audio obsession? Does the increase of knowledge bring sorrow or truth?

I think it depends on the person, and not so much the education. My parents, for example, could care less whether the audio comes from high end speakers or from the tv. It's not a matter of money, they just don't care. My brother has a pair of Klipsch towers he picked up from BB, and to him, he couldn't be happier. Myself, I'm a collector, and a perfectionist. If better sound can be had, then I want to upgrade (within a budget). That's why once I bought my first set, I studied, found out more info, and am now trying to make up for my initial rush to complete a speaker set. I believe it's just based on the person, and the initiative of that person to learn.

[mdabb]

We need an "in order to realise list". Maybe a "Ten Commandments" in order to benefit from lossless audio.

People are always looking for a TV, BD player, and receiver capable of.......... but settle on speakers. In order to enjoy HD audio you need at least............??? when it comes to speaker qualifications. People know you need a display capable of 720P, 1080 i/P in order to take advantage of Blu-ray but seem to not realise you have to meet a certain criteria to realise the benefit of HD sound.

So basically you have a set/list of requirements for speakers. If there was as much emphasis placed on the audio requirements portion as there is placed on requirements for PQ on Blu-ray. It would help people make sense.

Manufacturers could specifically market speakers that meet the requirements for HD audio even though there are speakers out there that already meet those requirements. It would at least make the consumer realise you need to meet a certain criteria in order to hear that HD audio just like they do with HDTV's in order to see HD quality.

[MPDIEHL]

Originally Posted by mdabb

We need an "in order to realise list". Maybe a "Ten Commandments" in order to benefit from lossless audio.

People are always looking for a TV, BD player, and receiver capable of.......... but settle on speakers. In order to enjoy HD audio you need at least............??? when it comes to speaker qualifications. People know you need a display capable of 720P, 1080 i/P in order to take advantage of Blu-ray but seem to not realise you have to meet a certain criteria to realise the benefit of HD sound.

So basically you have a set/list of requirements for speakers. If there was as much emphasis placed on the audio requirements portion as there is placed on requirements for PQ on Blu-ray. It would help people make sense.

Manufacturers could specifically market speakers that meet the requirements for HD audio even though there are speakers out there that already meet those requirements. It would at least make the consumer realise you need to meet a certain criteria in order to hear that HD audio just like they do with HDTV's in order to see HD quality.

Give that man a Harrumpf.......

[cravnsn]

I can remember making my first foray into higher end equipment back in the late 80’s. I knew the benefits because I had heard them first hand in a salon. A passive Adcom pre-amp, Adcom power amp and Dalquist DQ8 speakers. The hard part was convincing my wife that going into debt (shortly after getting married) would be worth the pay off in sonic bliss. Yes, I had been bitten by the audio bug.

It seemed though that I was never satisfied. No matter how good I got my system sounding, I always wanted better. It took me years to realize I wasn’t so much wanting better, but different. Hearing the same song played over & over on good equipment just wasn’t good enough – I wanted better – I deserved better, no matter the cost.
It was after we had kids that I was able to put things in perspective. At the time, we had two systems in the same room – one for home theater use (an early surround receiver & speakers) and a separate stereo system for serious music listening. I finally relented, and just went with a one-system-fits-all approach.

Still, in that time, I was able to “educate” my wife in why these speakers sounded better, and why I needed the expensive cable, to bring out every nuance. While she was able to hear the differences, the degree she appreciated those differences was far less than my own. A run of the mill HTIB would be just fine, and if she were married to someone other than me, she may well be listening to movies through the speakers attached to a 25” square tube – and she would be fine with that. I can even say that if she were browsing the aisles of BB and heard a decent mid-fi system, she would have no inclination to go over & check out what a difference better equipment could make.

[Beta Man]

Question: "Can I get HD Audio with (insert speakers/link here)

My Answer... "Yes, and this will display pictures from a Blu-ray player"

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Beta Man

Question: "Can I get HD Audio with (insert speakers/link here)

My Answer... "Yes, and this will display pictures from a Blu-ray player"

Funny, but also a true metaphor of this entire thread.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by cravnsn

I would also encourage people to take time out to just sit, close their eyes and listen. Really tune into all the sounds around you, at work, at home, while out & about…and listen to live music. Not a typical rock concert where the sound is amplified & equalized into a huge mess, but acoustic instruments. The sound a trumpet, acoustic guitar, piano…etal. make while in a recording studio is quite different than a piano in a bar, in your home, on a stage…and so on. It’s likely that even with a good recording & good equipment to play it on, the live sound will always be different than the reproduced recorded sound.

You don’t even have to go to any great lengths. Last weekend, my wife and I took our kids to a playground. There were other kids plying there, a family off playing a pickup game of soccer, and two of the moms off to the side chatting. I took the time to close my eyes, and just listen. There was a fair amount of wind, and yet I was still able to pick up on subtleties of inflections in peoples voices, directional cues & such. Then I started to think about scenes in movies where the actor speaking was in an outdoor environment. Naturally, the sound was very different. Of course, in a movie, the actor is mic’d and so the whole of the soundscape is different. What this made me realize is that we are at the mercy of the sound recorder & engineer when it comes to what we hear coming out of our speakers. How well (or not) they do their job largely dictates what we can & can’t hear.

THis is what I do constantly! Good advice!!!!! +1000