PS4 and XB1 "Game Consoles" as home Media Servers in Playready 3 notes

[jeff_rigby]

To understand what's coming you need to at least watch the following two slide shows then you can jump to: What does this all mean.

Slides from Hotchips 18 "Who Owns the Living Room" below: These two slide shows from 2006 give an easy to follow overview for Vidipath. They are a must read!

Who Owns the Living Room? Bill Curtis - Hot Chips is all about the need for a common DRM = Playready for sharing commercial media. It also mentions that as media gets higher resolutions closer to master quality the need for more secure DRM increases.
Who Owns the Living Room? Glen Stone Director, Standards & Strategy Sony Electronics Inc. Chair: DLNA Technical Committee is all about open standards = DLNA for sharing media in the home.

Add the above two together and you have DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath For an Idea of what's coming for the PS3, XB1 and PS4 read the Vidipath Guidelines.




Summary of what the following cites mean

1) The FCC DSTAC will likely recommend Sony's passage and Microsoft Playready on TEE level (2.5 or above) hardware for a downloadable Cable TV DRM able to be used by PS4, XB1, Phones, Tablets and TVs with ARM trustzone and maybe a PS3. When will we know; Sept 2015, when can it be used; Jan 2016. No cable boxes needed and the XB1 and PS4 will be used as DVRs. REPORT OF WORKING GROUP 4 TO DSTAC DRAFT July 7, 2015
2) PS3 and PS4 will be Vidipath clients
3) Tuner support for both Cable and Antenna TV is coming (Game Consoles as DVRs)
4) A new smart TV or Set Top Box (game console) for older TVs is needed to display features coming to Antenna TV and Cable; the ATSC 2.0 features are 1080P, S3D and XTV. A Vidipath TV or STB supports ATSC 2.0 coming to Antenna TV.
5) New media delivery schemes and home media sharing using a common DRM (Playready) are to be implemented soon. The PS4 and XB1 will be supporting HEVC, likely the PS3 also to reduce the internet bandwidth used.
6) Playready ND support for in home 4K streaming support for game consoles which implies Playready 3 (OTT, Sideloaded, Ultraviolet, 4K blu-ray digital bridge)



Cites and what they mean:

For the PS3 a PDF on Passage was just released at the latest FCC DSTAC (Downloadable Security Technical Advisory Committee) meeting. Page 12 has a chart showing a PS3 being used as a Vidipath STB.

Top path is RVU which the PS3 already supports.
Direct Attach End to End (center path) which is all IPTV direct from a cable modem . The future but Cable can't currently support more than a small percentage of their customers going all IPTV.
Sony is definitely supporting Vidipath, page 12 bottom path (Traditional Cable TV with the DLNA CVP2 FCC mandate where a DVR with tuners converts a RF channel to IPTV streams )

Second Sony Passage Paper to the FCC DSTAC is about using clear QAM tuners (USB, PC Card and Network tuners) with PCs, PS4, Phones and Tablets as the client using the DSS (Downloadable Security Scheme) (page 10 and 11). A picture of the PS3 labeled PS4 on page 11 is using a Hauppauge USB Tuner. Also on that page is a HD Homerun network tuner feeding a home WiFi router to portables.

The 2010 Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint (XB1) has the HD Homerun listed third row down, third column from the left. These two tuners were chosen by the W3C's TV working group as standards and their control schemes will be used as the APIs for the Network and USB tuner control standards supported by W3C extensions to Javascript. HTML5 TV tuner Control will work for both Cable TV and Antenna TV.

Comcast just signed an agreement with Sony to use Passage. This plus last year's Sony Job posting for a Sony representative to help cable companies with Vidipath, Miracast and more mean it's likely soon.

After Jan 2015 Microsoft is not charging for the use of their Playready server. They would only do that if they think it would become a standard used by Cable TV. This also gives us that Microsoft knows this is coming in 2015. The current listed DTCP-IP DRM for Vidipath is WMDRM10 which is a subset of Playready versions lower than 3. Vidipath's Cable TV FCC mandate was delayed by a Tivo suit to June 2015 and it was always planned for Vidipath to be upgraded to support HEVC and OTT 4K media by 2016. WMDRM10 is not secure enough to support what content owners want for 1080P and higher resolutions like 4K; thus Playready ND and Playready ports 2.5-3 (see Playready ports below).

Vidipath was supposed to be implemented June 2014 with Playready for OTT VOD from the cloud and the subset WMDRM10 supporting 1080i and lower resolutions for in home streaming (DTCP-IP) which were the limits of Cable TV broadcast at that time. There are now two versions of Playready in home streaming 1) WMDRM10 now called WMDRM ND and 2) Playready ND. Playready can Digital bridge between the two and media can tell Playready whether it's Master quality requiring the highest DRM security to lowest (500K pixels) not requiring DRM.

It appears Playready ND and WMDRM10 ND used for DTCP-IP can coexist. This paper from Microsoft section 8 deals with DTCP WMDRM ND media being issued a Playready ND license. Section 13 sets the same "local" home networking restrictions for Playready ND that are set for WMDRM ND when used with DTCP-IP.

From Microsoft's Playready 3 site: Supporting In-Home Content Distribution with PlayReady for Network Devices page 14

"The game console, acting as a PlayReady ND transmitter, has obtained a license from the service and it sends media files to valid PlayReady ND receivers that are part of the same in-home network. It also uses PlayReady technologies to build and issue local licenses to authorized receiving devices. Note that this model can also be applied to both live streams, video-on-demand and DVR content."

This confirms the XB1 and PS4 will be streaming 4K media in the home (from Cable TV and OTT) and supports both as 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge.

In addition the PS4 and XB1 will be DVRs and media servers of 1080P and 4K blu-ray using Playready ND or side loaded media from the cloud to Playready receivers. 4K will be downscaled to 1080P for platforms that don't support 4K or Playready 3.

Sony Delays in implementing Vidipath:

The current PS4 DLNA player is a placeholder for the final DLNA player. It does not support DRM and was built as a game mode app. The reason for the PS4 DLNA delay is the wait for Playready 3, HEVC and 4K blu-ray standards to be released. The reason the PS3 hasn't received any visible update to features is nearly the same; a wait for Playready, HTML5 <Video> ME (C-ENC format), HEVC and other standards to evolve. All these are part of what's required for Vidipath.

Sony's Playstation APPs are built with webkit native libraries and webkit and are called WebMAF. It was originally Firefox/Mozilla using Gnome native libraries but a Geko engine. A version of WebMAF using webkit instead of Geko was developed in 2009 and this is what Sony uses since 2012 when they ported Webkit to the PS3 and Vita. Since HTML5 <video> ME hadn't yet been created, Sony created Trilithium in 2008 which is the video player (assumption is that it uses the same APIs as Gstreamer) and some pixel/window frame manipulation routines seen in the PS3 XMB. Combining C++, WebMAF/Webkit and Trilithium allows Sony to create IPTV Apps. Trilithium has to be retired in favor of HTML5 <video> ME (embedded Playready with C-ENC format) and maybe WebGL. ALL IPTV apps on the PS3 created in 2012 have not been updated since 2012. Spotify is a WebMAF app just released a few months ago to the PS3 and it's a WEBMAF app without Video...which seems to indicate that DRM and Video player are the holdouts for updating IPTV apps on the PS3.


Sony is set to implement four business models for IPTV, they do have GetTV in those same markets mentioned for Playstation Vue and it's a OTA Network. All models take advantage of h.265 (HEVC)

1) DLNA CVP2 = Vidipath support for Cable TV channels with Sony offering VOD movies and TV programs in addition to those offered by Cable TV. Temporarily using Cable TV DVRs to convert RF to IPTV in the home and after 2016 using Sony Passage and USB or Network tuners with "Certified" DRM platforms and DSS (DSTAC's recommended Downloadable Security Scheme) which are also Vidipath. This is the transition scheme till consumers have STBs and cable develops it's infrastructure to handle all IPTV traffic (about 2017+). This is also in one of the Sony Passage PDFs.

2) Playstation Vue for the cable cutters in major cities with faster Internet and trunk lines that can carry the traffic.

3) OTA (Antenna TV) Media Hub ATSC 2.0 support for those not on cable and using even a slower Internet service like DSL. NRT or Sideloading movies downloaded at DSL speeds for later viewing. This goes along with Sony's GetTV OTA. All TVs except newer Smart TVs will require a Vidipath STB connected to them with either network tuners or USB tuners which are seen supported for Cable in the Sony Passage PDFs. A Vidipath STB or TV also has support for ATSC 2.0.

OTA (Antenna TV) for those with faster Internet; in addition to the above, Playstation Vue will be offered. Multiple networks are offering unbundled VOD channels for this model...so after 2016 a person on an Antenna can receive on average 35 channels from the antenna with some of them offering (ATSC 2.0) 1080P with S3D in addition to XTV support and their choice of Networks via VOD unbundled and untill recently only available on Cable TV.

4) Satellite whole home DVR DLNA RVU/RUI (Essentially DLNA CVP2 for satellite) with slower DSL or Cable Internet. This is already in place with the PS3 supporting DLNA RVU.

Playready ports:

Playready Porting has several versions based on the underlying security scheme with the higher being more secure as seen in the chart below. All versions of Playready stream and negotiate keys in the same manner but Playready knows higher porting versions like "3" are more secure and content owners of 4K media may require 3. The XB1 and PS4 support TEE level (Playready 3) DRM required for 4K media including the HDMI chip's HDCP with the PS4 supporting all ARM recommendations allowing on-line transaction support.



The PS3 did/does not have embedded playready support; it's currently being ported to the PS3. The purple block on the left represents Playready support provided by the player; I.E. Netflix would have playready in the app software. The next block labeled 2.5 has embedded Playready with various levels of support/security which the PS3 should support. The next to last is probably Intel which has it's own version of a security processor. The one on the far right is ARM TEE level DRM which is supported by all AMD's APUs and I think all ARM phones and tablets since sometime after 2006. The XB1 and PS4 have ARM blocks managed by a ARM trustzone processor in the APU and Southbridge respectively using Xtensa stream processors for Codecs and more.


PS4 and XB1 hardware to support being a media hub (includes 4K blu-ray support)
HTML5 browser used as RUI for Vidipath (start at last post and walk backwards)
Connected home starts when Vidipath platforms become ubiquitous



Since the PS4 and XB1 will be 4K blu-ray players I've also posted this on Blu-ray.com If I get banned on NeoGAF you can find me on Blu-ray.com

[jeff_rigby]

Is Playready porting 3, Vidipath and both the PS4 and XB1 as 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge the reason for sony-microsoft.com.

The Playready ND in home Transmitter-receiver streaming requires an internet connection at least once every 48 hours or a 4K blu-ray player with digital bridge, for instance, can't stream 4K media over the home network.

There has been a firestorm created by this article: New 4K-Capable PS4 And Xbox One Consoles Coming This Year, Predicts Netflix. What's not understood is that both Microsoft and Sony designed their consoles to be media hubs and 4K blu-ray players....the current version supports everything needed for 4K streaming and 4K blu-ray with a firmware update. That's a strong statement from me and I'll support it:

1) PS4 is Feature-proved" means they have a list of coming features with the hardware designed/proved to be able to support those features.

2) Modern Blu-ray drives can support 4K blu-ray There is a 2010 patent from Sony which confirms modern blu-ray drives can support 4k blu-ray. The patent discusses a modification to either the coming 4 layer BDXL in the 2010 blu-ray whitepaper or 3 layer 4K blu-ray disks to make them unreadable on older blu-ray drives by inverting the track information. A software change to later higher spec standard blu-ray drives makes them able to read this inverted track information.

For example, if a new version of the Blu-ray Disc that incorporates a multi-layer structure of at least three layers (hereinafter called the Ver. 2.0 disc) becomes commercially available in the future, it could happen that a user would load a Ver. 2.0 disc into a Ver. 1.0 drive.

Basically, because the Blu-ray Disc format is the same, recording and playing back a Ver. 2.0 disc on a Ver. 1.0 drive would not be absolutely impossible. However, if the Ver. 2.0 disc is achieved by using higher density and more layers, it can be assumed that the various types of specifications with which the Ver. 1.0 drive is provided would not the adequate. So a change to the specs of a blu-ray drive would make it usable for 4K. That's what the 2010 blu-ray BD-R whitepaper was all about. They had from 2010 to do this. Sometime after 2010 modern drives could read 4 layer BDXL which means the could easily read 3 Layer commercial disks.

Therefore, in a case where recording and playback of a Ver. 2.0 disc are done on a Ver. 1.0 drive, there is concern that recording errors and playback errors would occur with greater frequency.

This patent is from 2010 is either about the coming 4 layer BDXL disks or 3 layer 4K and may show that the 3 layer with the 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak was KNOWN at that time in 2010 to be future 4K blu-ray disk. If it's about coming standard blu-ray drives able to read 4 layers then they can read 3 layer 4K disks. The following cite shows that production equipment to make such a disk was shipping late 2013 which means the standard was known much earlier.

Singulus Develops Technology for 100 GB, 4K Triple-Layer Blu-Ray Discs in 2013

1) A 4K drive has to read 1080P blu-ray disks...
2) The disk standard for 4K was known prior to 2013 when production machines were shipping for those disks
3) Sony was involved in setting the disk standard.
4) The PS4 did not ship till Nov 2013
5) Only the 4K blu-ray format and specs were undecided till this year...I.E. parts that can be firmware updated.

UHD Blu-ray has 33 GB (1 layer with the 2010 Panasonic Firmware tweak), 66 GB (2 layer with the Panasonic firmware tweak) and 100 GB ( three layer with the Panasonic firmware tweak) discs but has to support legacy 25 GB and 50 GB. Laser and drive are the same and since 2012 all have the more powerful and reliable laser developed in 2010 that allows reliable three layer. The Sony patent I cited is from 2010.

Originally Posted by https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=256623

I've been informed that PC's will not require new Blu-ray drives to playback 4k media/bluray. PC's will only need software that supports 4K (PowerDVD 14 already does this). So we have it then....

3) 4K Blu-ray Confirmed, Coming in Late 2015

4) Movie industry requirements for DRM that Playready and HDCP 2.2 follow

5) Tee Level DRM requirements for on-line transactions. XTV is going to support On-line transactions. This requires the greatest level of security, "TEE level DRM"

6) Game console power regulations Applies to newer Consoles but speculation on older all wrong.

7) Game consoles to replace cable boxes and the connected home starts in 2014

8) Sony second GPU patent. Mentioned in the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and in a Microsoft 2 GPU patent as well as letters to the EU power board.

The PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip. Why custom if not to support HDMI 2 and HDCP 2.X. HDCP can take place in the PS4 southbridge where the Trustzone processor and Cadence-Tensilica Xtensa DPU stream processors reside. The HEVC codec in both the XB1, PS4, Kaveri and Carrizo, in fact all codecs, compression and streaming DRM are software based on Xtensa processors.

Pictures of both versions of the PS4 have printed circuit board traces exposed. This means the video is HDCP 2.2 encrypted in Southbridge rather than as it's usually done in the HDMI chip. One of the DRM guidelines is that video and audio inputs to the HDMI transmitter must be hidden inside the layered Printed circuit board. That this is not done means it's already encrypted. The PS4 has a HDMI 2.0 port.

Xtensa DPU processors will be in new 4K connected Blu-ray players and some handheld chipsets for OpenVX, Codecs, DRM, upscaling, post processing, Gesture and voice recognition. These same features are supported by Xtensa processors in AMD APUs and Game consoles.

If you read the Movie industry requirements for DRM, it requires a firmware update-able, revocable DRM with watermarking. Further, encryption from Source to Sink and for streaming DRM, that's Playready into the PS4 southbridge and HDCP 2.X out of the southbridge. Having unencrypted video from southbridge to a HDMI chip would violate best practice and Content provider guidelines. Further TEE level DRM for on-line purchases also requires the GPU (for customer assurance ICONs) to be inside the same SoC with all IO and everything managed by a Trustzone like processor (protected virtual processes). The Xtensa DPU can also be used as a low power GPU.

So a low power GPU for TEE customer assurance icons and watermarking the video is needed in the same IC with the encryption. A low power GPU is also needed when the PS4 is acting as a Vidipath (DLNA CVP2) client or in nearly all IPTV power modes and app modes except for when playing a game and then there are recommended IDLE power standards. A Low power GPU is not needed for a RUI (DLNA CVP2) server but is needed for a RVU server.

Edit: A GPU is not needed for a RVU client, it's a Pixel accurate picture of the menu that is sent from server to client. A PS3 can only be a RVU client at this time. After Playready certification, work on the PS3 browser to support WebGL, DLNA and other W3C extensions and likely a XMB upgrade to support a browser desktop, it should support everything but power modes.

Jeff Rigby

[Mavrick]

I'm not going to lie and say I understand what half of this stuff means.

But as far as theoretically updating PS4 software to playback UHDBD is concerned, we know PS4 has only got HDMI 1.4 hardware, which is capable of playing back 4k video at 24fps but limited to only 8-bit colour.

So even if PS4 was updated to enable playback, would there even be any point, since we wouldn't be able to take full advantage of what UHDBD has to offer? Such as HFR and 10-bit and 12-bit colour?

Wouldn't it mean that PS4 would essentially be a "poor man's" entry in to the world Ultra High Definition when compared to a stand alone UHDBD Player?

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

I'm not going to lie and say I understand what half of this stuff means.

But as far as theoretically updating PS4 software to playback UHDBD is concerned, we know PS4 has only got HDMI 1.4 hardware, which is capable of playing back 4k video at 24fps but limited to only 8-bit colour.

So even if PS4 was updated to enable playback, would there even be any point, since we wouldn't be able to take full advantage of what UHDBD has to offer? Such as HFR and 10-bit and 12-bit colour?

Wouldn't it mean that PS4 would essentially be a "poor man's" entry in to the world Ultra High Definition when compared to a stand alone UHDBD Player?

The PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip that is not listed so how do you know it's only a 1.4? Both the PS4 and XB1 have HDCP take place with the ARM trustzone processor managed Xtensa processors rather than in the HDMI chip and thus the HDMI chip only needs a faster clock. All HDMI 2.0 timings were known, only the HDCP was an issue with a new HDMI 2.0 chip.

For the PS4, the Southbridge is the magic and was built with the same Cadence IP as the ARM block in the XB1 APU.

Originally Posted by http://community.cadence.com/cadence_blogs_8/b/ip/archive/2013/09/06/hdmi-2-0-ushering-in-the-next-generation-of-ultra-hd-tv

Sept 2013 Cadence is delivering HDMI 2.0 verification IP (VIP) to enable pre-silicon verification of SoC interfaces. This VIP will speed the development of critical SoCs underlying Ultra HD TVs and make this new consumer entertainment experience a global reality.

What this says is that HDMI 2.0 takes place primarily in the SoC not in the HDMI chip. This is a change from HDMI 1.4 that no-one has understood.

Again: If you read the Movie industry requirements for DRM, it requires a firmware update-able, revocable DRM with watermarking. Further, encryption from Source to Sink and for streaming DRM, that's Playready into the PS4 southbridge and HDCP 2.X out of the southbridge. Having unencrypted video from southbridge to a HDMI chip would violate best practice and Content provider guidelines.

The preceding HDMI specification updates were controlled by a small group of founders - Hitachi, Panasonic, Philips, Silicon Image, Sony, Thomson, RCA, and Toshiba. Now, HDMI 2.0 is being developed with input from the whole industry. In addition to the original founders, contributing companies include Apple, AMD, Intel, Microsoft, Cadence, Broadcom, ST Microelectronics, Samsung, Texas Instruments, Dolby and nearly all the industry bigwigs in the computer, consumer, and semiconductor industry segments. Altogether, the HDMI Forum now includes over 80 companies.

Sony, Microsoft, AMD and Cadence were part of the XB1 and PS4 HDMI 2.0 design.

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

The PS4 has a custom Panasonic HDMI chip that is not listed so how do you know it's only a 1.4?

[Show spoiler] Both the PS4 and XB1 have HDCP take place with the ARM trustzone processor managed Xtensa processors rather than in the HDMI chip and thus the HDMI chip only needs a faster clock. All HDMI 2.0 timings were known, only the HDCP was an issue with a new HDMI 2.0 chip.

For the PS4, the Southbridge is the magic and was built with the same Cadence IP as the ARM block in the XB1 APU.

What this says is that HDMI 2.0 takes place primarily in the SoC not in the HDMI chip. This is a change from HDMI 1.4 that no-one has understood.

Again: If you read the Movie industry requirements for DRM, it requires a firmware update-able, revocable DRM with watermarking. Further, encryption from Source to Sink and for streaming DRM, that's Playready into the PS4 southbridge and HDCP 2.X out of the southbridge. Having unencrypted video from southbridge to a HDMI chip would violate best practice and Content provider guidelines.

Sony, Microsoft, AMD and Cadence were part of the XB1 and PS4 HDMI 2.0 design.

This is why I asked as a serious question. Please try and pare with me, In laymen's terms theoretically you are saying that PS4 can be updated software wise to play UHDBDs 60p in either 10 or 12-bit colour without the need to refresh the hardware?


I see that Panasonics 2.0 chip is MN864777
http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/j...&part=MN864777

Where as the Pani Chip in the PS4 is MN86471A



Which as you say is likely to be custom, as it's not listed on the Pani website http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/e.../hdmi/#general

So what you are saying is that this HDMI chip may not strictly be HDMI 1.4 per se since the grunt work is being done via the SoC it could output 4k in HFR as well as either 10 or 12-bit colour the same way a stand alone HDMI 2.0 UHDBD player could?

TL;DR
PS4 could support full 4k 60p and 10-bit/12-bit colour without the need for a hardware refresh?

[Mavrick]

I also see that Sony has/had an option for two different standards of HDMI 2.0 and the latest generation of HDMI 1.4a can output 4k @ 60hz which is beyond the HDMI 1.4 specs.



Source

So would we sill be limited to 10gbps?

[richieb1971]

Are directors now going to film at 60fps?

I very much doubt its going to be a concern for movies. Perhaps documentaries might have 60fps footage but I can't see it for movies.

Its not going to be an issue. I believe the 10bit color problem will be more of an issue. Thats if you want the full spec.

There will be another PS4 released in due course and it will most definitely have the upgraded HDMI port.

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by richieb1971

Are directors now going to film at 60fps?

I very much doubt its going to be a concern for movies. Perhaps documentaries might have 60fps footage but I can't see it for movies.

Its not going to be an issue. I believe the 10bit color problem will be more of an issue. Thats if you want the full spec.

There will be another PS4 released in due course and it will most definitely have the upgraded HDMI port.

Whilst 60fps content would be almost non existent, it's the 48fps HFR I'm more interested in since if the Hobbit got released as it was intended to be seen I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

Whilst 60fps content would be almost non existent, it's the 48fps HFR I'm more interested in since if the Hobbit got released as it was intended to be seen I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

Mixed views all around regarding 60fps film based content. Hadn't seen any to judge for myself yet but this ain't the place to discuss.

As for the subject matter of the thread, (Jeff) you don't have to explain how every single component is tied together to get your message across. It's like me trying to explain the benefits of why "&" is better then "and".

[richieb1971]

So you don't want a technical readout thread or one where the technical data could be the decider of whether to use the PS4 vs getting a dedicated player.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by richieb1971

So you don't want a technical readout thread or one where the technical data could be the decider of whether to use the PS4 vs getting a dedicated player.

Tech on.

I'm not "modding" my PS4.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

This is why I asked as a serious question. Please try and pare with me, In laymen's terms theoretically you are saying that PS4 can be updated software wise to play UHDBDs 60p in either 10 or 12-bit colour without the need to refresh the hardware?


I see that Panasonics 2.0 chip is MN864777
http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/j...&part=MN864777

Where as the Pani Chip in the PS4 is MN86471A



Which as you say is likely to be custom, as it's not listed on the Pani website http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/e.../hdmi/#general

So what you are saying is that this HDMI chip may not strictly be HDMI 1.4 per se since the grunt work is being done via the SoC it could output 4k in HFR as well as either 10 or 12-bit colour the same way a stand alone HDMI 2.0 UHDBD player could?

TL;DR
PS4 could support full 4k 60p and 10-bit/12-bit colour without the need for a hardware refresh?

Edit: The picture of the PS4 HDMI chip has all pins exposed for easy probe attachment by a hacker. That alone proves the Southbridge MUST be doing the HDCP as one of the older (before 4K media) DRM requirements is hidden pins for all critical ICs even memory (which is why the Southbridge DDR3 memory pins are hidden) or the data must be encrypted. The standards are higher now with Tee level hardware having it's own INTERNAL memory and flash ROM. Nothing is exposed and with ARM trustzone, the critical DRM code is protected/run as a separate process from open world code.

Goto, a well respected Japanese hardware reviewer, speculated the PS4 would have a custom HDMI chip before the 2013 hardware breakdown reveled the Panasonic custom HDMI chip. He never explained why and how it would work and everyone assumed it was a custom HDMI 2.0. He must have known then what the original discover (I cited Ron Jones of the AVS Forum) of the custom nature of the chip means. Both the XB1 and PS4 have a custom HDMI chip! Both the XB1 and PS4 will be 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge and will be Media hubs as well as Vidipath clients and servers with Playready 3 for streaming 4K content over the home network.

You need to understand what a HDMI chip does to fully understand what I'm saying. The chart you cited is just talking about the timing/clock/bandwidth of the HDMI port which internally is clock driven with programmable dividers. A HDMI 1.4 chip has a multitude of functions in addition to the video out which don't change from 1.4 to 2.0. For example expanded CEC in HDMI 2.0 is just adding additional commands which are passed through the HDMI chip untouched. The differences are timing/clock/bandwidth and HDCP. The video be it 8 bit or 10 bit is just a stream that has a higher bandwidth (Higher clock) at 60 hz and 10 bit. ALL video generation is done by the player in Southbridge not by the HDMI chip...it just sees a stream of video and audio.

HDMI chips (transmitter and receiver) talk to each other and negotiate an encryption scheme and with supported resolutions the clock timings. HDMI 2.0 has a new HDCP scheme which wasn't known and will be considerably more intense that that in HDMI 1.4 And new resolutions/clock timings which were known.

Consider the case of a stand alone HDMI 2.0 chip. Best practice and Content owner requirements would have the video stream encrypted between Southbridge and HDMI chip with a negotiation between the two and the HDMI chip unencrypting the stream then negotiating with the TV HDMI receiver to reencrypt the stream again. Further the HDMI chip would be firmware updateable with it's own private key and those updates would have to be unique to that HDMI chip and also encrypted with the private key for that chip.

Consider the case of a custom HDMI chip without HDCP. The custom chip would be programmed with the timings for a HDMI 2.0 and pass through all negotiations for HDCP to southbridge. The Southbridge handles all encryption for the HDMI port. It already has a unique key for Playready and Firmware updates and has the hardware to watermark as well as a Trustzone processer for TEE level DRM = Playready 3.


Blu-ray to the Southbridge is encrypted
Miracast to the Southbridge is encrypted
DRM media on external drives or in the PS4 is encrypted and passes through Southbridge
Streaming DRM media from the internet is encrypted and passes through the Southbridge
DLNA media which may be DRM encrypted passes through the Southbridge

Where it is unencrypted and played (put in a form for viewing) then encrypted for the HDMI port. The most secure place for this to happen is ALL in Southbridge managed with a ARM trustzone processor.

4K blu-ray players will be on the market around October 2015. I suspect a Sony 4K blu-ray player could be a PS4 without the AMD APU ; I.E. just primarily the PS4 Southbridge chip for all functionality needed by a Connected 4K blu-ray player that has a browser, supports apps including Skype, ooVoo or Google's Hangout, Supports Vidipath as a client and server and can play simple games or support Playstation now as well as a client for PS4 streamed games. This is documented for Tensilica-Xtensa DPUs by Cadence as the same hardware in the PS4 southbridge will be in TVs and blu-ray players. Remember the PS4 southbridge has it's own 256 MB of DDR3 memory!

High end 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge will have a min 1TB Hard disk so 256MB of memory should be enough. Low end will have more RAM and Flash memory but will rely on Network drives for most of the storage.


Jeff Rigby

[Derb]

Ok, I'll entertain the 4K model.

Entirely rumours, theory though.

Sony is well known for keeping secrets to the public. One such secret got enough attention to call them out which was why they capped devs to only have access to 4.75GB of RAM of the 8GB max the PS4 is capable of.

Nothing was revealed obviously but it leads to future heavy firmware updates to the OS to add features. Sony may have held the cap for this very reason of future 4K playback.

They know the disc drive can read triple layer discs & included the x6 CAV which is enough to read 4K files.

A few obstacles is the obvious DRM, & HDCP 2.2.

What's more.. is how serious they are with the upcoming Morpheus & how that will eat away the available 3GB RAM.

If they can pull this off on a software only update, I'll be shocked & also at the same time have to give Sony credit.

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by Derb

Ok, I'll entertain the 4K model.

Entirely rumours, theory though.

Sony is well known for keeping secrets to the public. One such secret got enough attention to call them out which was why they capped devs to only have access to 4.75GB of RAM of the 8GB max the PS4 is capable of.

Nothing was revealed obviously but it leads to future heavy firmware updates to the OS to add features. Sony may have held the cap for this very reason of future 4K playback.

They know the disc drive can read triple layer discs & included the x6 CAV which is enough to read 4K files.

A few obstacles is the obvious DRM, & HDCP 2.2.

What's more.. is how serious they are with the upcoming Morpheus & how that will eat away the available 3GB RAM.

If they can pull this off on a software only update, I'll be shocked & also at the same time have to give Sony credit.

The morpheus might not be that much of a drain on resources thanks to the fact it has an external brick with some sort of hardware in so that might be where the magic happens as it were so PS4 isn't working on it's own When morpheus is plugged in.

[Mavrick]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

[Show spoiler]Edit: The picture of the PS4 HDMI chip has all pins exposed for easy probe attachment by a hacker. That alone proves the Southbridge MUST be doing the HDCP as one of the older (before 4K media) DRM requirements is hidden pins for all critical ICs even memory (which is why the Southbridge DDR3 memory pins are hidden) or the data must be encrypted. The standards are higher now with Tee level hardware having it's own INTERNAL memory and flash ROM. Nothing is exposed and with ARM trustzone, the critical DRM code is protected/run as a separate process from open world code.

Goto, a well respected Japanese hardware reviewer, speculated the PS4 would have a custom HDMI chip before the 2013 hardware breakdown reveled the Panasonic custom HDMI chip. He never explained why and how it would work and everyone assumed it was a custom HDMI 2.0. He must have known then what the original discover (I cited Ron Jones of the AVS Forum) of the custom nature of the chip means. Both the XB1 and PS4 have a custom HDMI chip! Both the XB1 and PS4 will be 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge and will be Media hubs as well as Vidipath clients and servers with Playready 3 for streaming 4K content over the home network.

You need to understand what a HDMI chip does to fully understand what I'm saying. The chart you cited is just talking about the timing/clock/bandwidth of the HDMI port which internally is clock driven with programmable dividers. A HDMI 1.4 chip has a multitude of functions in addition to the video out which don't change from 1.4 to 2.0. For example expanded CEC in HDMI 2.0 is just adding additional commands which are passed through the HDMI chip untouched. The differences are timing/clock/bandwidth and HDCP. The video be it 8 bit or 10 bit is just a stream that has a higher bandwidth (Higher clock) at 60 hz and 10 bit. ALL video generation is done by the player in Southbridge not by the HDMI chip...it just sees a stream of video and audio.

HDMI chips (transmitter and receiver) talk to each other and negotiate an encryption scheme and with supported resolutions the clock timings. HDMI 2.0 has a new HDCP scheme which wasn't known and will be considerably more intense that that in HDMI 1.4 And new resolutions/clock timings which were known.

Consider the case of a stand alone HDMI 2.0 chip. Best practice and Content owner requirements would have the video stream encrypted between Southbridge and HDMI chip with a negotiation between the two and the HDMI chip unencrypting the stream then negotiating with the TV HDMI receiver to reencrypt the stream again. Further the HDMI chip would be firmware updateable with it's own private key and those updates would have to be unique to that HDMI chip and also encrypted with the private key for that chip.

Consider the case of a custom HDMI chip without HDCP. The custom chip would be programmed with the timings for a HDMI 2.0 and pass through all negotiations for HDCP to southbridge. The Southbridge handles all encryption for the HDMI port. It already has a unique key for Playready and Firmware updates and has the hardware to watermark as well as a Trustzone processer for TEE level DRM = Playready 3.


Blu-ray to the Southbridge is encrypted
Miracast to the sourhbridge is encrypted
DRM media on external drives or in the PS4 is encrypted and passes through southbridge
Streaming DRM media from the internet is encrypted and passes through the southbridge
DLNA media which may be DRM encrypted passes through the sourhbridge

Where it is unencrypted and played (put in a form for viewing) then encrypted for the HDMI port. The most secure place for this to happen is ALL in Southbridge managed with a ARM trustzone processor.

4K blu-ray players will be on the market around October 2015. I suspect a Sony 4K blu-ray player could be a PS4 without the AMD APU ; I.E. just primarily the PS4 Southbridge chip for all functionality needed by a Connected 4K blu-ray player that has a browser, supports apps including Skype, ooVoo or Google's Hangout, Supports Vidipath as a client and server and can play simple games or support Playstation now as well as a client for PS4 streamed games. This is documented for Tensilica-Xtensa DPUs by Cadence as the same hardware in the PS4 southbridge will be in TVs and blu-ray players. Remember the PS4 southbridge has it's own 256 MB of DDR3 memory!

High end 4K blu-ray players with digital bridge will have a min 1TB Hard disk so 256MB of memory should be enough. Low end will have more RAM and Flash memory but will rely on Network drives for most of the storage.

Note to Mods: I'm thinking of moving all discussions about PS4 and PS3 hardware and firmware updates to this forum from NeoGAF where I've been temp banned for treating NeoGAF like a personal blog when I corrected a thread quoting Forbes that the current generation PS4 and XB1 couldn't support 4K blu-ray. I posted a slide proving the XB1 supported HEVC encoding and decoding....the mod suggested I move discussions out of NeoGAF. The public reason was; I bumped a 4 month old thread, the private reason was as I stated above. Is this OK? Consider that the PS3 and PS4 are blu-ray players and will have much of the same functionality seen in stand alone blu-ray players.

NeoGAF is a strange place, far be it for me to comment on the way they moderate I'm sure they had their reasons. But nothing you've posted here is against any of this forums rules and I think it's rather interesting to speculate on, some of it is quite hard to grasp I admit but I think I get the gist of it and see what you're trying to say.

You're more than welcome to keep up the discussion and who knows 6 months from now we could be looking back at this thread and thinking just how right you were

[Derb]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

NeoGAF is a strange place, far be it for me to comment on the way they moderate I'm sure they had their reasons. But nothing you've posted here is against any of this forums rules and I think it's rather interesting to speculate on, some of it is quite hard to grasp I admit but I think I get the gist of it and see what you're trying to say.

You're more than welcome to keep up the discussion and who knows 6 months from now we could be looking back at this thread and thinking just how right you were

Rumours & theory discussion from my understanding of NeoGAF is treading on their moderation boarders while here it's more in the grey area.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Derb

Ok, I'll entertain the 4K model.

Entirely rumours, theory though.

Sony is well known for keeping secrets to the public. One such secret got enough attention to call them out which was why they capped devs to only have access to 4.75GB of RAM of the 8GB max the PS4 is capable of.

Nothing was revealed obviously but it leads to future heavy firmware updates to the OS to add features. Sony may have held the cap for this very reason of future 4K playback.

They know the disc drive can read triple layer discs & included the x6 CAV which is enough to read 4K files.

A few obstacles is the obvious DRM, & HDCP 2.2.

What's more.. is how serious they are with the upcoming Morpheus & how that will eat away the available 3GB RAM.

If they can pull this off on a software only update, I'll be shocked & also at the same time have to give Sony credit.

4K blu-ray playback does not need GDDR5 memory or the AMD APU to be on, it's all Southbridge using the 256 MB DDR3 memory. That GDDR5 reserve is for something else.

There are two issues; 1) blu-ray playback should only use 21 watts and as soon as you turn on the AMD GPU and GDDR5 you are using 80+ watts at the lowest clock and voltage. 2) You can not have unencrypted DRM media outside of the Southbridge...the player and trustzone processor (keys and crypto hardware) are in southbridge. This is why the current DLNA player as a game app does not support DRM, it's running in GDDR5 memory on the AMD APU.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Mavrick

NeoGAF is a strange place, far be it for me to comment on the way they moderate I'm sure they had their reasons. But nothing you've posted here is against any of this forums rules and I think it's rather interesting to speculate on, some of it is quite hard to grasp I admit but I think I get the gist of it and see what you're trying to say.

You're more than welcome to keep up the discussion and who knows 6 months from now we could be looking back at this thread and thinking just how right you were

Thanks, I'm not always correct but I do my homework and always cite which many find interesting reading.

[Derb]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

4K blu-ray playback does not need GDDR5 memory or the AMD APU to be on, it's all Southbridge using the 256 MB DDR3 memory. That GDDR5 reserve is for something else.

There are two issues; 1) blu-ray playback should only use 21 watts and as soon as you turn on the AMD GPU and GDDR5 you are using 80+ watts at the lowest clock and voltage. 2) You can not have unencrypted DRM media outside of the Southbridge...the player and trustzone processor (keys and crypto hardware) are in southbridge.

Ok so speed & OS isn't an issue then.

I'm trying to figure out how you bypass the drm without a hardware mod. The pins on HDMI 2.0+ spec are different then 1.4 no?

[Zivouhr]

Interesting info. It would be cool to see 48 hfr fps (high frame rate, frames per second) Hobbit 3D play on a PS4.

Originally Posted by Derb

Sony is well known for keeping secrets to the public. One such secret got enough attention to call them out which was why they capped devs to only have access to 4.75GB of RAM of the 8GB max the PS4 is capable of.

What's more.. is how serious they are with the upcoming Morpheus & how that will eat away the available 3GB RAM.

If they can pull this off on a software only update, I'll be shocked & also at the same time have to give Sony credit.

I didn't hear about a cap on RAM, thanks for the info. Is that still in effect I wonder?

3 GB RAM hopefully only dedicated to the Morpheus games and then for the regular games it should've jumped back up to the full 8 GB RAM, but not sure how it all works since Morpheus might work with all games.