thinking of vinyl - Blu-ray Forum

cembros · 08-29-2008, 05:02 PM

ok so iv been hearing alot about vinyl on this board and how great the sound quality is. Iv been thinking about steping into the worl of vinyl and im look for some advice. My biggest question is about sound quality, i remember my parents old vinly records would have a loud hiss and crackel that isnt present on cd's, is that just a case of a cheep player, and is this something that can be fixed. If so what are some good players, and qhat kind of equipment will i need. Thank you for any advice.

DavePS3 · 08-29-2008, 05:14 PM

Some feel the pops and crackles are the charm of analog vinyl but the fact is, it comes from worn, dirty records and/or a worn needle (stylus). There is a warmth to vinyl audio that CD's cannot replicate. All those ones and zeros sometimes do not allow for anything in between so binery language sometimes is not all it's cracked up to be in audio. Sometimes.

Over all, vinyl is seeing a surge in sales and some companies are actually producing new vinyl of current and catalog titles. Get a good turntable and make sure you either have a phono input onyour receiver or look into getting an outboard phono stage. If you plug the two RCA's from a turntable into any other input like aux' or tape, etc... you'll barely hear the audio coming from the record even at full volume.

TenEightyP · 08-29-2008, 05:16 PM

There are some very good audiophile heavy gauge discs being produced at the moment (I can only speak for the UK, but importing should not be a problem for you).

I am considering purchasing the Thorens TD160HD (£1560) turntable as recently reviewed in a HiFi mag in the UK, that does not include arm or cartridge, but there are plenty of good cheaper turntables.

cembros · 08-29-2008, 05:26 PM

im really just trying to adopt a high quality audio format that supports a wide range of music styles. SACD and DVD-A seem to concentrate on classical and jazz which isnt really for me, plus it seams like these audio formats are not really being produced anymore. Maybe i should wait for blu ray audio to pick up, but that could be an endless wait.

Beta Man · 08-29-2008, 11:26 PM

If you get the "Vinyl Fetish" you won't be dissapointed..... the sound quality is DIVINE.

ryoohki · 08-30-2008, 02:19 AM

While waiting to get my Pro-Ject Debut III and Cambridge 640p Phono Stage. My friend loaned me a very good Technics 1983 turnable with brand new stylus on it. I'am listening to Madonna Immaculate collection.... and WOW never heard her sound that good on my receiver.. and i still don't have my stage yet! I bought like 15 album (New and Used) all the 180g, 45rpm Metallica, Hard Candy, 1 Cranberries album (rare) etc... i got several coming from Ebay. Even got my hand of Just Be from Tiesto (LOL 4LP!).

Vinyl have more dynamic range imho. that why it sound different. A lot of time CD have it's dynamic range compressed, not always but most of them. if you listen to them at the good volume, they sound more open and 'live' than CD

New Vinyl don't pop! Old ones need a good cleanup. Me and my friend are gonna buy the cleanup machine of a used vinyl, most of them are perfect without scratch but they have deposit on the sillion witch cause pop and crack.

Pro-Ject Debut 3 + Cambridge 640p Phono Stage is a very good start for about 525$...

Older disc Pop and crack, but can be cleaned. The machine + Cleaning Solution cost, but it's worth it imho if you are 2-3 on the same same it drag the price down.

you can see my list here

http://pages.infinit.net/raymanz/vinyl.htm

I'll take photos soon!

buckshot · 08-30-2008, 02:40 AM

i love my vinyl, my daughter and i spend sunday listening to my vinyl and reading comic books. but she has ruined m stylus by pushing the start button with no record in the player so the needle just scraped across the turntable and wore down. so now its my excuse to buy a new record player. looking at a Denon dp300f i don't have tons of money to spend on it. but its a step up.

buckshot · 08-30-2008, 02:42 AM

but i also love sacds, dvd-a, and dualdiscs. have me about 30 of them. to bad they never took off.

zenmeister · 08-30-2008, 03:42 AM

Vinyl has that much balloy-oed 'warmth'. Who cares because the game should be fidelity and realism and with lossless recording and replaying through hi rez formats (SACD and DVD Audio) with the bonus of 5 or 7 multi-channel we truly had that. I mourn the failure of the hi rez systems and am holding out for another comeback - maybe in blu format.
I have an enormous SACD and DVDA library and thank goodness for labels like Chesky that are still producing new hi rez music. I am fortunate to have excellent audio gear to support this music (Bryston amplification, 7 channel B&W speakers and Krell processing). The failure in the SACD and DVDA formats was not in the reproductive qualities but in the bad marketing and stupid format war which killed off both sides.
I know there will be a small but enthousiastic market for blu audio and I am buying every early release. I am not sure that it matter to most but for us diehards, bring it on!

ryoohki · 08-30-2008, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenmeister

Vinyl has that much balloy-oed 'warmth'. Who cares because the game should be fidelity and realism and with lossless recording and replaying through hi rez formats (SACD and DVD Audio) with the bonus of 5 or 7 multi-channel we truly had that. I mourn the failure of the hi rez systems and am holding out for another comeback - maybe in blu format.
I have an enormous SACD and DVDA library and thank goodness for labels like Chesky that are still producing new hi rez music. I am fortunate to have excellent audio gear to support this music (Bryston amplification, 7 channel B&W speakers and Krell processing). The failure in the SACD and DVDA formats was not in the reproductive qualities but in the bad marketing and stupid format war which killed off both sides.
I know there will be a small but enthousiastic market for blu audio and I am buying every early release. I am not sure that it matter to most but for us diehards, bring it on!

Depends... a lot of recording on CD and Digital use Dynamic Range Compression at the recording level. most vinyl production don't. But you're right format war and MP3 killed the DVDA and SACD format.

Riff Magnum · 08-30-2008, 03:15 PM

do i smell an anolog vs. digital war brewing?

Just because something is pressed to vinyl doesn't necessarily mean that it was "mastered" on vinyl. Bands can record and master digitally then simply dump this info to a vinyl master for reproduction at the pressing plant and the result won't be that much different than the cd your rocking in your car. On the other hand, there are newer bands like the White Stripes who record to 2" tape and then send that tape to a mastering house where a 2 channel analog master is made. This analog tape master is then used to create a CD master using fancy schmancy DAC's and also a vinyl master to be sent to their respective duplication plants for pressing. Watching a good mastering engineer actually use a lathe to cut a hunk of wax into a vinyl master is an almost religious experience. That being said i think great results can be achieved using both digital and analog methods of recording, mastering, and replication. It comes down to how good is your source sound? How good is your room sound? How good are your microphones and their placement? How good is your mixing board and monitors? How good are your ears? How good are the songs? If all these ducks are in a row you're gonna get a good sound regardless of the format you choose. There are plus and minuses for both methods.

richteer · 08-30-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beta Man

If you get the "Vinyl Fetish" you won't be dissapointed..... the sound quality is DIVINE.

Amen. Vinyl is (by far) my primary music source. In fact, just yesterday I received my latest shipment of vinyl goodness from Acoustic Sounds. I can't wait to fire up my system and listen to them!

Chevypower · 08-30-2008, 03:21 PM

yes, forget the fact that all new vinyls were recorded and mastered on DIGITAL equipment. If you stop remembering that, you can tell yourself how much better a vinyl produced from that digital master is, than a CD produced from that master.
Things might have been different when they were recorded and mastered in analog.

btf1980 · 08-30-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chevypower

yes, forget the fact that all new vinyls were recorded and mastered on DIGITAL equipment. If you stop remembering that, you can tell yourself how much better a vinyl produced from that digital master is, than a CD produced from that master.

This isn't true. Many lp's, particularly many of the 180gram and 200gram lp's are analog master recordings. I'd say most of them are since they are for the most part older artists.

Chevypower · 08-30-2008, 03:31 PM

I don't believe for a second that an album with a DDD recording also has an AAA duplicate for a low selling niche vinyl market, either the LP is DDA or the CD is AAD for it to be the same album. Or they would have to record it and mix it twice.

ryoohki · 08-30-2008, 03:50 PM

Well we did a comparison with a Alanis Morisette Album, i think 2002 or close to that. CD vs Vinyl and the voice on the vinyl was more natural. We did A/B with leveling and it was pretty much in you're face. Even my friend girlfriend spotted the difference and she's not a maniac.

Both technology are there. CD need a very good Dac and Transport to sound better, vinyl need a good cartridge and phono stage.

Riff Magnum · 08-30-2008, 03:51 PM

they don't have to record and mix it twice. They simply have to have access to digital to analog converters and analog to digital converters. Record and mix to tape and then the mastering house makes two different masters from that.

Chevypower · 08-30-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riff Magnum

they don't have to record and mix it twice. They simply have to have access to digital to analog converters and analog to digital converters. Record and mix to tape and then the mastering house makes two different masters from that.

So we can agree then, that somewhere along the LP creation process, the sound has been digitized then converted to analog, which is the point I was making before. Whether the analog "master" was mastered from a digital master isn't relevant. So if analog was to sound better than digital, it must be bottlenecked from it's digital process anyway. I don't think anyone has fully recorded, mixed and mastered in complete analog (with no digitized process along the way) for a long time.

Riff Magnum · 08-30-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chevypower

So we can agree then, that somewhere along the LP creation process, the sound has been digitized then converted to analog, which is the point I was making before. Whether the analog "master" was mastered from a digital master isn't relevant. So if analog was to sound better than digital, it must be bottlenecked from it's digital process anyway. I don't think anyone has fully recorded, mixed and mastered in complete analog (with no digitized process along the way) for a long time.

Umm, no we can't agree yet. I think you're confused and you're in turn confusing me. Lots of bands still record, mix, and master via analog equipment. Check out www.electrical.com for the "tits" in all analog recording. It's just that since CD's are the #1 format, most bands have to go digital at some point in the process. Generally speaking, if a band records to a digital medium it will more than likely stay in that domain till the end of the process. However, many bands like to track to tape for "the fat sound" and then bounce to digital for the "ease" of the mixing and mastering processes. If you really wanna release a good vinyl and a cd for the same album, then the preferred method is to track and mix via 2" tape and then send that 2" mix to a mastering house that is capable in both formats. The mastering engineer will use your 2" analog mix to make an analog master (vinyl acetate) and a corresponding CD-R master to be sent off for replication. So you see now that the vinyl copy never had to enter the digital domain during the entire process.

ryoohki · 08-30-2008, 09:01 PM

I would have to add than a lot of Digital master are in a higher resolution than CD. DVDA and SACD was there of them. But failed due to people not caring much. Analog waveform doesn't have a sample rate, it's just that... a waveform created from the master. Even if it's digital, if they processed it in 96khz, 24bit... they'll convert that to analog for a vinyl press. Then it's the equipement that play enter in the process. If you're Phono Stage is crap, it won't sound good or less than it could be. If you're cartridge is sub par, it can't read the whole spectrum and reproduce it!

08-30-2008, 02:19 AM	#6
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	While waiting to get my Pro-Ject Debut III and Cambridge 640p Phono Stage. My friend loaned me a very good Technics 1983 turnable with brand new stylus on it. I'am listening to Madonna Immaculate collection.... and WOW never heard her sound that good on my receiver.. and i still don't have my stage yet! I bought like 15 album (New and Used) all the 180g, 45rpm Metallica, Hard Candy, 1 Cranberries album (rare) etc... i got several coming from Ebay. Even got my hand of Just Be from Tiesto (LOL 4LP!). Vinyl have more dynamic range imho. that why it sound different. A lot of time CD have it's dynamic range compressed, not always but most of them. if you listen to them at the good volume, they sound more open and 'live' than CD New Vinyl don't pop! Old ones need a good cleanup. Me and my friend are gonna buy the cleanup machine of a used vinyl, most of them are perfect without scratch but they have deposit on the sillion witch cause pop and crack. Pro-Ject Debut 3 + Cambridge 640p Phono Stage is a very good start for about 525$... Older disc Pop and crack, but can be cleaned. The machine + Cleaning Solution cost, but it's worth it imho if you are 2-3 on the same same it drag the price down. you can see my list here http://pages.infinit.net/raymanz/vinyl.htm I'll take photos soon! Last edited by ryoohki; 08-30-2008 at 02:34 AM.

08-30-2008, 03:42 AM	#9
zenmeister Junior Member Member since:Aug 2008	Vinyl shinyl Vinyl has that much balloy-oed 'warmth'. Who cares because the game should be fidelity and realism and with lossless recording and replaying through hi rez formats (SACD and DVD Audio) with the bonus of 5 or 7 multi-channel we truly had that. I mourn the failure of the hi rez systems and am holding out for another comeback - maybe in blu format. I have an enormous SACD and DVDA library and thank goodness for labels like Chesky that are still producing new hi rez music. I am fortunate to have excellent audio gear to support this music (Bryston amplification, 7 channel B&W speakers and Krell processing). The failure in the SACD and DVDA formats was not in the reproductive qualities but in the bad marketing and stupid format war which killed off both sides. I know there will be a small but enthousiastic market for blu audio and I am buying every early release. I am not sure that it matter to most but for us diehards, bring it on!

08-30-2008, 03:15 PM	#11
Riff Magnum Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Apr 2008 Location:The Island Blu-ray collection:149	do i smell an anolog vs. digital war brewing? Just because something is pressed to vinyl doesn't necessarily mean that it was "mastered" on vinyl. Bands can record and master digitally then simply dump this info to a vinyl master for reproduction at the pressing plant and the result won't be that much different than the cd your rocking in your car. On the other hand, there are newer bands like the White Stripes who record to 2" tape and then send that tape to a mastering house where a 2 channel analog master is made. This analog tape master is then used to create a CD master using fancy schmancy DAC's and also a vinyl master to be sent to their respective duplication plants for pressing. Watching a good mastering engineer actually use a lathe to cut a hunk of wax into a vinyl master is an almost religious experience. That being said i think great results can be achieved using both digital and analog methods of recording, mastering, and replication. It comes down to how good is your source sound? How good is your room sound? How good are your microphones and their placement? How good is your mixing board and monitors? How good are your ears? How good are the songs? If all these ducks are in a row you're gonna get a good sound regardless of the format you choose. There are plus and minuses for both methods. Last edited by Riff Magnum; 08-30-2008 at 03:38 PM.

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08-29-2008, 05:02 PM	#1
cembros Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Blu-ray collection:456 Trading Score:4	thinking of vinyl ok so iv been hearing alot about vinyl on this board and how great the sound quality is. Iv been thinking about steping into the worl of vinyl and im look for some advice. My biggest question is about sound quality, i remember my parents old vinly records would have a loud hiss and crackel that isnt present on cd's, is that just a case of a cheep player, and is this something that can be fixed. If so what are some good players, and qhat kind of equipment will i need. Thank you for any advice.

08-29-2008, 05:14 PM	#2
DavePS3 Blu-ray Guru Member since:Jan 2007 Location:Toronto Home Theater Gallery:56 Blu-ray reviews:1 Trading Score:1	Some feel the pops and crackles are the charm of analog vinyl but the fact is, it comes from worn, dirty records and/or a worn needle (stylus). There is a warmth to vinyl audio that CD's cannot replicate. All those ones and zeros sometimes do not allow for anything in between so binery language sometimes is not all it's cracked up to be in audio. Sometimes. Over all, vinyl is seeing a surge in sales and some companies are actually producing new vinyl of current and catalog titles. Get a good turntable and make sure you either have a phono input onyour receiver or look into getting an outboard phono stage. If you plug the two RCA's from a turntable into any other input like aux' or tape, etc... you'll barely hear the audio coming from the record even at full volume.

08-29-2008, 05:16 PM	#3
TenEightyP Active Member Member since:Jun 2007 Location:United Kingdom 4K collection:1073 Blu-ray collection:5910 DVD collection:140	There are some very good audiophile heavy gauge discs being produced at the moment (I can only speak for the UK, but importing should not be a problem for you). I am considering purchasing the Thorens TD160HD (£1560) turntable as recently reviewed in a HiFi mag in the UK, that does not include arm or cartridge, but there are plenty of good cheaper turntables.

08-29-2008, 05:26 PM	#4
cembros Power Member Member since:Jan 2008 Blu-ray collection:456 Trading Score:4	im really just trying to adopt a high quality audio format that supports a wide range of music styles. SACD and DVD-A seem to concentrate on classical and jazz which isnt really for me, plus it seams like these audio formats are not really being produced anymore. Maybe i should wait for blu ray audio to pick up, but that could be an endless wait.

08-29-2008, 11:26 PM	#5
Beta Man Moderator Top contributor Member since:Jan 2008 Location:Juuuuuuuust A Bit Outside.... Home Theater Gallery:4 Blu-ray collection:268 Blu-ray reviews: 18 Trading Score:25	If you get the "Vinyl Fetish" you won't be dissapointed..... the sound quality is DIVINE.

08-30-2008, 02:40 AM	#7
buckshot Blu-ray Guru Member since:Feb 2007 Location:san die ego Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:9	i love my vinyl, my daughter and i spend sunday listening to my vinyl and reading comic books. but she has ruined m stylus by pushing the start button with no record in the player so the needle just scraped across the turntable and wore down. so now its my excuse to buy a new record player. looking at a Denon dp300f i don't have tons of money to spend on it. but its a step up.

08-30-2008, 02:42 AM	#8
buckshot Blu-ray Guru Member since:Feb 2007 Location:san die ego Blu-ray reviews:2 Trading Score:9	but i also love sacds, dvd-a, and dualdiscs. have me about 30 of them. to bad they never took off.

08-30-2008, 03:21 PM	#13
Chevypower Special Member Member since:Feb 2008	yes, forget the fact that all new vinyls were recorded and mastered on DIGITAL equipment. If you stop remembering that, you can tell yourself how much better a vinyl produced from that digital master is, than a CD produced from that master. Things might have been different when they were recorded and mastered in analog.

08-30-2008, 03:31 PM	#15
Chevypower Special Member Member since:Feb 2008	I don't believe for a second that an album with a DDD recording also has an AAA duplicate for a low selling niche vinyl market, either the LP is DDA or the CD is AAD for it to be the same album. Or they would have to record it and mix it twice.

08-30-2008, 03:50 PM	#16
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	Well we did a comparison with a Alanis Morisette Album, i think 2002 or close to that. CD vs Vinyl and the voice on the vinyl was more natural. We did A/B with leveling and it was pretty much in you're face. Even my friend girlfriend spotted the difference and she's not a maniac. Both technology are there. CD need a very good Dac and Transport to sound better, vinyl need a good cartridge and phono stage.

08-30-2008, 03:51 PM	#17
Riff Magnum Blu-ray Samurai Member since:Apr 2008 Location:The Island Blu-ray collection:149	they don't have to record and mix it twice. They simply have to have access to digital to analog converters and analog to digital converters. Record and mix to tape and then the mastering house makes two different masters from that.

08-30-2008, 09:01 PM	#20
ryoohki Blu-ray Samurai Member since:May 2007 Home Theater Gallery:6 Blu-ray collection:6 Blu-ray reviews:8 Trading Score:5	I would have to add than a lot of Digital master are in a higher resolution than CD. DVDA and SACD was there of them. But failed due to people not caring much. Analog waveform doesn't have a sample rate, it's just that... a waveform created from the master. Even if it's digital, if they processed it in 96khz, 24bit... they'll convert that to analog for a vinyl press. Then it's the equipement that play enter in the process. If you're Phono Stage is crap, it won't sound good or less than it could be. If you're cartridge is sub par, it can't read the whole spectrum and reproduce it!

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