Kiss Me Kate 3D Blu-ray (1953) [Region Free]

[ToEhrIsHuman]

Can anyone tell me if the 2D version encoded on the disc is derived from the 3D MVC stream, or a separate AVC encode? I know it only makes sense that there would be one single encode on the disc, but just curious if that is the case or not. Thanks in advance.

[Impossible]

Ok movie, not the best musical I've ever seen by far.

3D was just ok I thought. Yes it is quite strong like most 3D of the era, but it didn't really add anything to the film I didn't think.

There is no doubt that the restoration was fantastic, but it is all let down by the usual terrible 3D encode that Warner does. I don't know if it's the lower bitrates or what, but their 3D encodes never live up to the quality of other studios and always have a muddy looking picture that always looks like it's going to break up into a pixelated mess at any second.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by Paulo Elias

I played my copy of Kiss Me Kate, the 3D version, yesterday. Not much of a 3D fan, but nevertheless I was very pleased and impressed with the elaborate stereoscopic effects throughout the film. Of course, actors throwing props at the camera may be a little odd, but still the film is clearly demo quality as far as 3D is concerned.

I noticed early on a lot (and I mean a lot) of photographic grain in the picture and I am sure it was not due to my playback system (Oppo BDP-103 and a 4K Samsung UN65HU8500 screen). It reminded me of the same grain level on some of those Tom & Jerry shorts on Blu-Ray. Perhaps the restorators may supply a reasonable explanation to this, and if they do I would be interested to have it.

The same level of grain is not present in the 2D version. In fact, the 2D picture looks a bit blurred (or not as sharp as) in some scenes, but nothing to worry about. In my opinion, the 3D version is easily the winner here, whether one likes 3D effects or not.

I don't think it is grain, I think it is the result of poor encoding and happens on most Warner 3D titles, especially the older ones.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by ToEhrIsHuman

Can anyone tell me if the 2D version encoded on the disc is derived from the 3D MVC stream, or a separate AVC encode? I know it only makes sense that there would be one single encode on the disc, but just curious if that is the case or not. Thanks in advance.

The 2D version of the movie encoded on the 3D disc is a separate AVC stream, verified this from the information menu on my Blu-ray player.

The 2D version's title-sequence is also slightly cropped at the top of the 2D frame.

The MVC 3D stream with the red diamond shape and the word "Kiss" has both left & right views completely visible in their entirety in the 16:9 frame. The AVC 2D version has the same red diamond with the word "Kiss" slightly cut off at the top of the diamond shape and there is a slight visible hair/dust particle hanging down where the red diamond's cropping begins.

[Paulo Elias]

Originally Posted by Impossible

Ok movie, not the best musical I've ever seen by far.

3D was just ok I thought. Yes it is quite strong like most 3D of the era, but it didn't really add anything to the film I didn't think.

There is no doubt that the restoration was fantastic, but it is all let down by the usual terrible 3D encode that Warner does. I don't know if it's the lower bitrates or what, but their 3D encodes never live up to the quality of other studios and always have a muddy looking picture that always looks like it's going to break up into a pixelated mess at any second.

That could be true. Given that both 3D and 2D are included in separate encodings (MVC and AVC, respectively), we would be better off by having two separate discs, even if the original elements had photographic grain that the restorators did not want to remove for clarity sake.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by Paulo Elias

That could be true. Given that both 3D and 2D are included in separate encodings (MVC and AVC, respectively), we would be better off by having two separate discs, even if the original elements had photographic grain that the restorators did not want to remove for clarity sake.

It's got nothing to do with grain, even their digital titles have the same exact look/problem, the bit-rate is too low and it shows. Even titles like Gravity, Lego Movie and Godzilla suffer the same encoding problems.

It may not be noticeable on smaller screens, but projected it is a big problem on all of their 3D titles.

[Paulo Elias]

If the bitrate is too low one more reason to encode the 2D feature on a second disc, and concurrently decrease compression on the 3D version, is it not?

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by Paulo Elias

If the bitrate is too low one more reason to encode the 2D feature on a second disc, and concurrently decrease compression on the 3D version, is it not?

I don't know if even that would help. Most of their other 3D releases are on separate discs but the same 'look' is always their on all of their releases. It is their encoding method that is obviously the problem.

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by Paulo Elias

If the bitrate is too low one more reason to encode the 2D feature on a second disc, and concurrently decrease compression on the 3D version, is it not?

It's always a good idea to avoid compression artifacts. Probably the only reason Peter Jackson authored The Hobbit 3D trilogy, each movie split on two Blu-ray 3D discs.

[Jbug]

Got my copy yesterday. I'm not going to watch it till I get my new set (Samsung JS9500 or the 9000). Those sets boast superior contrast (amongst other new features), something that I have been wanting since 3D first came out in 2010. These new HDR sets are great for 3D.

[Paulo Elias]

Originally Posted by Paul H

It's always a good idea to avoid compression artifacts. Probably the only reason Peter Jackson authored The Hobbit 3D trilogy, each movie split on two Blu-ray 3D discs.

And I couldn't agree more. Titanic 3D is spread in two discs and it looks great, albeit not true 3D (it was shot in regular Super 35).

Originally posted by Impossible:
I don't know if even that would help. Most of their other 3D releases are on separate discs but the same 'look' is always their on all of their releases. It is their encoding method that is obviously the problem.

Yes, that may be but nevertheless it is hard to believe that they could be so clumsy, given that WB's former hi-def work is very convincing and it pre-dates Blu-Ray.

[tenia]

Kiss Me Kate has this encode :

MPEG-4 AVC Video / 27961 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11954 kbps

Here are a couple of non-Warner 3D titles :

The Adventures of Tintin :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24949 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10350 kbps

Frozen :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25882 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10799 kbps

Finding Nemo :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24885 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11137 kbps

Hugo :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 23991 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 14999 kbps

A Christmas Carol :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25601 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 15922 kbps

Cloudy with a chance of meatballs :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24548 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 16279 kbps

Monster House :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24912 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 15731 kbps

Ninja Turtles :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 29533 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 13794 kbps

Tangled :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 26022 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 13991 kbps

Transformers : Dark of the Moon :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 19561 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 8524 kbps

Transformers : Age of Extinction :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 17608 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 7103 kbps

Tron Legacy :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24283 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 13156 kbps


Now, for The Hobbit :

An Expected Journey TC :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25974 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11993 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25107 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11616 kbps

The Desolation of Smaug TC :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25147 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11655 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24523 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10750 kbps

The Desolation of Smaug EE :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25418 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11429 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24440kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10498 kbps

The Battle of the Five Armies TC :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25937 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11954 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25956 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11424 kbps


And the 3 aforementioned Warner titles with issues :

Godzilla :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 23837 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11426 kbps

Lego Movie :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24976 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11984 kbps

Gravity :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 21731 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 12899 kbps


For Godzilla, Gravity and Lego Movie, Impossible's theory about poor bitrates seems simply wrong : there is no poor bitrates on these 3 3D titles (see figures above).

As you can see above, all the titles I took (quite randomly from AVS A/V Specs thread, for most of them) are navigating in the same ranges of video bitrates : except the 2 Transformers movies, their AVC average bitrates are all around 25000 kbps and the MVCs between 10000 and 15000 kbps. "Demo material" like Frozen actually has one of the lowest MVC average bitrate, and is below Kiss Me Kate.

The split on 2 discs of The Hobbit movies (both TC and EE) actually only allows them to fall within the same range of bitrates than the other stuff.

What can happen however is that Warner's encoding process is not optimum, meaning for a given video bitrate, the result is not as good as it can be, but for Kiss Me Kate, it certainly has nothing to do with poor bitrate compared to other 3D titles. If this is the case, having 2 BDs (one for the 2D version and one for the 3D version) won't change anything. This is where I would agree more with Impossible.

For the sake of completeness, I have to say I have no 3D-diffuser whatsoever, so am purely comparing data in answer to the above theory "bitrates of Warner's 3D BDs are too low, hence problems".

[Paulo Elias]

Hi, Tenia,

Thanks you for the clarification effort.

For all its worth I brought my disc to a friend of mine theatrical booth, with a 3D player adapted to a good, but non professional projector. The important bit is that the movie was projected in a very large screen, and not a single grain was noticed.

However, there was clearly a visible loss in resolution, as compared to my 65" 4K screen, which I used as a reference.

I presume that the lack of grain was probably due to excessive filtering in the projector's video processor or in the LG player he is using. I am sorry that I didn't write the model numbers.

I must say that I had a 3D high end Philips player once that used to filter many grainy discs of my collection, whereas neither of my former Oppo BDP-93 and current BDP-103 were able to deal with them, and despite their QDeo processing.

In other words, I believe that the grain was there, probably could not be avoided by their authoring software as previously suggested, but it can nevertheless be removed by filtering, the reason why some users may not notice them.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by tenia

Kiss Me Kate has this encode :

MPEG-4 AVC Video / 27961 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11954 kbps

Here are a couple of non-Warner 3D titles :

The Adventures of Tintin :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24949 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10350 kbps

Frozen :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25882 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10799 kbps

Finding Nemo :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24885 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11137 kbps

Hugo :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 23991 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 14999 kbps

A Christmas Carol :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25601 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 15922 kbps

Cloudy with a chance of meatballs :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24548 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 16279 kbps

Monster House :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24912 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 15731 kbps

Ninja Turtles :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 29533 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 13794 kbps

Tangled :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 26022 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 13991 kbps

Transformers : Dark of the Moon :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 19561 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 8524 kbps

Transformers : Age of Extinction :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 17608 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 7103 kbps

Tron Legacy :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24283 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 13156 kbps


Now, for The Hobbit :

An Expected Journey TC :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25974 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11993 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25107 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11616 kbps

The Desolation of Smaug TC :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25147 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11655 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24523 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10750 kbps

The Desolation of Smaug EE :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25418 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11429 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24440kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 10498 kbps

The Battle of the Five Armies TC :
Disc 1 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25937 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11954 kbps
Disc 2 :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 25956 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11424 kbps


And the 3 aforementioned Warner titles with issues :

Godzilla :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 23837 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11426 kbps

Lego Movie :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 24976 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 11984 kbps

Gravity :
MPEG-4 AVC Video / 21731 kbps / 1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1
MPEG-4 MVC Video / 12899 kbps


For Godzilla, Gravity and Lego Movie, Impossible's theory about poor bitrates seems simply wrong : there is no poor bitrates on these 3 3D titles (see figures above).

As you can see above, all the titles I took (quite randomly from AVS A/V Specs thread, for most of them) are navigating in the same ranges of video bitrates : except the 2 Transformers movies, their AVC average bitrates are all around 25000 kbps and the MVCs between 10000 and 15000 kbps. "Demo material" like Frozen actually has one of the lowest MVC average bitrate, and is below Kiss Me Kate.

The split on 2 discs of The Hobbit movies (both TC and EE) actually only allows them to fall within the same range of bitrates than the other stuff.

What can happen however is that Warner's encoding process is not optimum, meaning for a given video bitrate, the result is not as good as it can be, but for Kiss Me Kate, it certainly has nothing to do with poor bitrate compared to other 3D titles. If this is the case, having 2 BDs (one for the 2D version and one for the 3D version) won't change anything. This is where I would agree more with Impossible.

For the sake of completeness, I have to say I have no 3D-diffuser whatsoever, so am purely comparing data in answer to the above theory "bitrates of Warner's 3D BDs are too low, hence problems".

I actually meant their encoding is crap not their bit rates, my bad. It is definitely a 'look' they all have that I thought may have been from bit rates but of course it's not because not all titles with low bit rates have the 'look' that Warners 3D stuff does.

Aren't 3D bit rates halved though between the 2 eyes? So if it says 24,000 it is only 12,000 per eye?

[tenia]

Originally Posted by Impossible

I actually meant their encoding is crap not their bit rates, my bad. It is definitely a 'look' they all have that I thought may have been from bit rates but of course it's not because not all titles with low bit rates have the 'look' that Warners 3D stuff does.

I'd agree with you on this, as I wrote in my post. I don't think it's a bitrate issue, but more an encoding issue (meaning it doesn't show in disc scans but rather in the encoding setup)

Originally Posted by Impossible

Aren't 3D bit rates halved though between the 2 eyes? So if it says 24,000 it is only 12,000 per eye?

I don't think so. Others might know better than me, but the 3D encodes on BDs usually works like this : the 2D part replicates "one eye" (the left eye, for instance), and the MVC part is for "the other eye" (the right eye for instance).

So AVC bitrates are not to be considered as halved between the 2 eyes, but rather as compiled for the 2 eyes (AVC + MVC = total bitrate), which is why the BD norms don't change for 3D titles, and the max data bitrate are the same for AVC than for AVC + MVC.

[Tns49]

Originally Posted by tenia

I'd agree with you on this, as I wrote in my post. I don't think it's a bitrate issue, but more an encoding issue (meaning it doesn't show in disc scans but rather in the encoding setup)



I don't think so. Others might know better than me, but the 3D encodes on BDs usually works like this : the 2D part replicates "one eye" (the left eye, for instance), and the MVC part is for "the other eye" (the right eye for instance).

So AVC bitrates are not to be considered as halved between the 2 eyes, but rather as compiled for the 2 eyes (AVC + MVC = total bitrate), which is why the BD norms don't change for 3D titles, and the max data bitrate are the same for AVC than for AVC + MVC.

Yes, and the MVC typically encodes well, being just the difference between the two eyes making it sometimes only 50% the size of the AVC size. The total pixel for each eye is essentially the same as the AVC copy. And no need to include the soundtrack in the MVC encode so still more space saved.


Considering the size vs the length of the movies, I don't see problems having anything to do with the encodes. Remember we are talking older films not necessarily saved well on Film for all these years and possibly not perfectly shot then as it was still a very new process.

[Impossible]

Originally Posted by Tns49

Yes, and the MVC typically encodes well, being just the difference between the two eyes making it sometimes only 50% the size of the AVC size. The total pixel for each eye is essentially the same as the AVC copy. And no need to include the soundtrack in the MVC encode so still more space saved.


Considering the size vs the length of the movies, I don't see problems having anything to do with the encodes. Remember we are talking older films not necessarily saved well on Film for all these years and possibly not perfectly shot then as it was still a very new process.

It's not just old films, it's their new films as well, they all have the same look.

[Tns49]

Originally Posted by Tns49

Yes, and the MVC typically encodes well, being just the difference between the two eyes making it sometimes only 50% the size of the AVC size. The total pixel for each eye is essentially the same as the AVC copy. And no need to include the soundtrack in the MVC encode so still more space saved.


Considering the size vs the length of the movies, I don't see problems having anything to do with the encodes. Remember we are talking older films not necessarily saved well on Film for all these years and possibly not perfectly shot then as it was still a very new process.

One thing to make clear, considering the comments about the 2d not having the problem someone sees in the 3d. The 2d on this disk IS just one eye or the 3d and is part of the 3d picture. Its not a different encode for that eye. The other eye is done as a separate encode which is just the difference between in and the 2d version (the MVC file).

[Paul H]

Originally Posted by Tns49

One thing to make clear, considering the comments about the 2d not having the problem someone sees in the 3d. The 2d on this disk IS just one eye or the 3d and is part of the 3d picture. Its not a different encode for that eye. The other eye is done as a separate encode which is just the difference between in and the 2d version (the MVC file).

Please read post #125 regarding the visual verification that the 2D AVC encode on this disc is not one of the 3D eye views. The 2D AVC version on this particular release has a different frame perimeter than the MVC version..

The 2D version of the movie encoded on the 3D disc is a separate AVC stream, verified this from the information menu on my Blu-ray player.

The 2D version's title-sequence is also slightly cropped at the top of the 2D frame.

The MVC 3D stream with the red diamond shape and the word "Kiss" has both left & right views completely visible in their entirety in the 16:9 frame. The AVC 2D version has the same red diamond with the word "Kiss" slightly cut off at the top of the diamond shape and there is a slight visible hair/dust particle hanging down where the red diamond's cropping begins.

[Tns49]

Originally Posted by Paul H

Please read post #125 regarding the visual verification that the 2D AVC encode on this disc is not one of the 3D eye views. The 2D AVC version on this particular release has a different frame perimeter than the MVC version..

I looked at the files on the disk on my PC (which has a 3-d Blu-ray player) and I don't see a separate AVC anywhere.


And I don't see a different framing, although on my set it shifts the 3d frames slightly (without cutting things off) when in 3d mode. Maybe similar shifting is what causes some to see I slightly inferior picture of the 3d version.