UHD Blu-ray Disc Authentication Poll

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

The idea is simple but based on several insane assumptions.
Let's start with a simple example.

Look at the threads here. Some people stated that they got from some BB retail locations the UHD BDs before the official release date. If these disks could be pirated (not sure what real DRM differences exist between 1.0 and 2.0) the people that got them early could have made copies available on torrent sites before the official release date. Now we are talking "purchases", but if we assume a dishonest employee the retail location got it before they were put on the shelves and the distribution center even earlier and the replicator finished replicating them even earlier.

If the title key is server based and the server does not allow the key to be DL early the disk you buy is useless until release date, and you can't see the film until that date and so it can't be made available before that date on torrent sites (granted the last statement is questionable but not necessarily insane). Where it becomes insane is the assumption that there are people out there that are checking daily the torrent sites(is X available for free DL yet?) until release day eve and if not on release date they will run out to buy the title on the disk.

It does not check the player this is not like BD+ (i.e. not hacked, not plugged into a PVR.....), what it does is before allowing the title key to be DL it can check some simple criteria (i.e. release day is 2/23/2016 it is 2/21/2016 don't DL the key, the guy is going through a VPN/Proxy don't DL the key, the guy's ISP is saying he is in Canada this is a UK release don't DL the key....)

Ah, thanks, I think I get it, but, really, I know this is shaky ground but most disc based piracy as I see it comes after release date anyway. As I thought we'd established, most pre-release date piracy comes nowadays from Web Downloads from streaming on demand sites which coincide with the cinema release more and more often.

[raygendreau]

Regarding the genesis and validation of online authentication as a deterrent to piracy prior to physical media street date: A similar process is used when delivering theatrical release hard drives to theaters with keys supplied to unlock the contents a few days before the showing:

http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/info/help-keys/

http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/

The studios probably concluded that the use of controlled keys was effective in reducing piracy for the theatrical release hard drives and decided to apply it to consumer physical media (UHD BR) as well.

In 2013 Spencer Stevens, SONY Picture’s CTO proposed mandatory online authentication for players:

“Studios have not predetermined a standard for 4k content protection, so Stephens proposed a number of measures that could safe-guard the 4K content. Bill Rosenblatt, who spoke at the summit for his company GiantSteps Media, notes that Stephens talked about "title-by-title diversity," so that a technique used to hack one movie title doesn't necessarily apply to another. He added that security on any device is a combination of technical measures and compliance, proposing proposed 4K players to authenticate themselves online before playback, which would enable hacked players to be denied but would also make it impossible to play 4K content without an Internet connection.”

read:http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=37253

This eventually led to the current BDA specification that makes it mandatory for all UHD players to enable the optional online Correction Key delivery should a studio choose to use it to prevent access to content prior to street date.

So, in addition to Fox, Sony is another studio that may use online authentication for some future release.

[applemac]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Regarding the genesis and validation of online authentication as a deterrent to piracy prior to physical media street date: A similar process is used when delivering theatrical release hard drives to theaters with keys supplied to unlock the contents a few days before the showing:

http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/info/help-keys/

http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/

The studios probably concluded that the use of controlled keys was effective in reducing piracy for the theatrical release hard drives and decided to apply it to consumer physical media (UHD BR) as well.

In 2013 Spencer Stevens, SONY Picture’s CTO proposed mandatory online authentication for players:

“Studios have not predetermined a standard for 4k content protection, so Stephens proposed a number of measures that could safe-guard the 4K content. Bill Rosenblatt, who spoke at the summit for his company GiantSteps Media, notes that Stephens talked about "title-by-title diversity," so that a technique used to hack one movie title doesn't necessarily apply to another. He added that security on any device is a combination of technical measures and compliance, proposing proposed 4K players to authenticate themselves online before playback, which would enable hacked players to be denied but would also make it impossible to play 4K content without an Internet connection.”

read:http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=37253

This eventually led to the current BDA specification that makes it mandatory for all UHD players to enable the optional online Correction Key delivery should a studio choose to use it to prevent access to content prior to street date.

So, in addition to Fox, Sony is another studio that may use online authentication for some future release.

I really hope they start putting out that type of encryption to the public. It will have a chance to be cracked and proven to only hurt real consumers...once again.

[PenguinMaster]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

So, in addition to Fox, Sony is another studio that may use online authentication for some future release.

This statement makes me think that if online authentication becomes common it is likely to be specific studios that put it on all (or the majority) of their discs. Therefore avoiding discs that require online authentication would be a simple matter of avoiding all the discs by the studios that support it.

So if Fox and Sony used online authentication but Warner and Universal didn't use online authentication (just as an example) then I'd get Warner & Universal discs on UHD and Sony & Fox discs on regular Blu-ray.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

Regarding the genesis and validation of online authentication as a deterrent to piracy prior to physical media street date: A similar process is used when delivering theatrical release hard drives to theaters with keys supplied to unlock the contents a few days before the showing:

http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/info/help-keys/

http://digitalcinema.bydeluxe.com/

The studios probably concluded that the use of controlled keys was effective in reducing piracy for the theatrical release hard drives and decided to apply it to consumer physical media (UHD BR) as well.

In 2013 Spencer Stevens, SONY Picture’s CTO proposed mandatory online authentication for players:

“Studios have not predetermined a standard for 4k content protection, so Stephens proposed a number of measures that could safe-guard the 4K content. Bill Rosenblatt, who spoke at the summit for his company GiantSteps Media, notes that Stephens talked about "title-by-title diversity," so that a technique used to hack one movie title doesn't necessarily apply to another. He added that security on any device is a combination of technical measures and compliance, proposing proposed 4K players to authenticate themselves online before playback, which would enable hacked players to be denied but would also make it impossible to play 4K content without an Internet connection.”

read:http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=37253

This eventually led to the current BDA specification that makes it mandatory for all UHD players to enable the optional online Correction Key delivery should a studio choose to use it to prevent access to content prior to street date.

So, in addition to Fox, Sony is another studio that may use online authentication for some future release.

So if this is in any way true, once the release date is passed, there's no need for online authentification so, for all intents and purposes, it won't be a consumer issue at all.

So if a film comes out on, say 20 May, from 20 May onwards, the online key disappears and no-one even realises it was a thing unless they had the disc on 19 May.

Got it. So why is anyone bothered about it? If you buy a locked disc, simply wait for the street date to pass, and, hey presto, unlocked disc.

That said, I don't think it's for piracy at all, I think it's to control the regional release of physical product and licence protection. If it's used at all, and, as we get further into it, I don't think it will be.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by KRW1

So if this is in any way true, once the release date is passed, there's no need for online authentification so, for all intents and purposes, it won't be a consumer issue at all.

So if a film comes out on, say 20 May, from 20 May onwards, the online key disappears and no-one even realises it was a thing unless they had the disc on 19 May.

Got it. So why is anyone bothered about it? If you buy a locked disc, simply wait for the street date to pass, and, hey presto, unlocked disc.

That said, I don't think it's for piracy at all, I think it's to control the regional release of physical product and licence protection. If it's used at all, and, as we get further into it, I don't think it will be.

Slippery slope... slippery, slippery slope.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by KRW1

So if this is in any way true, once the release date is passed, there's no need for online authentification so, for all intents and purposes, it won't be a consumer issue at all.

So if a film comes out on, say 20 May, from 20 May onwards, the online key disappears and no-one even realises it was a thing unless they had the disc on 19 May.

Got it. So why is anyone bothered about it? If you buy a locked disc, simply wait for the street date to pass, and, hey presto, unlocked disc.

That said, I don't think it's for piracy at all, I think it's to control the regional release of physical product and licence protection. If it's used at all, and, as we get further into it, I don't think it will be.

Problem with this is that, how will the disc know what date it is? Any disc with a date key will need to have the player connected to authenticate the current date. Otherwise (meaning offline) someone could just set a future date on the player so it will play the disc. So you're back to a one-time authentication anyway. Like I said, I don't have a problem with that, especially if it means that Criterion gets on board and uses it for region coding purposes.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Slippery slope... slippery, slippery slope.

They don't seem to be sliding down it for the initial releases, as far as we know. They play without being connected to the internet.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by KRW1

They don't seem to be sliding down it for the initial releases, as far as we know. They play without being connected to the internet.

Trouble is that not all of the studios are releasing yet, so we don't have an idea of their game plan.

[KRW1]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

Trouble is that not all of the studios are releasing yet, so we don't have an idea of their game plan.

Yeah, this is my worry too. I'm cautiously optimistic though. They must realise if they lock up the discs too much with this sort of thing, then some people, not me, but some people will simply obtain them through Illegal methods.

Though it wouldn't be the first time the studios have bitten the hands of those still willing to give them money.

[raygendreau]

Here is how the process works: There is a Title Key Server maintained by the studio. There is a (time based) Correction Key Server maintained by AACS. A UHD BR disc requiring online authentication is loaded into a UHD player. The player, via the internet seeks authorization from the AACS server to receive a Title Key from the studio Title Key server. If the request is received on or after the UHD BR street date, the player will receive authorization from the AACS server to acquire the Title Key from the studio server. (If the request is received by the AACS server before the UHD BR street date, the player will not receive a Title Key.) The Title Key is placed in local storage on the player. Once the Title Key is on the player, that specific UHD BR may be played without an internet connection only on that player.

If the UHD BR is loaded on a different player, the process is repeated.

There has never been any mention of a restriction on lending or selling the UHD BR. Each player just has to receive a Title Key once for each UHD BR that doesn’t have the Title Key on the disc.

The only justification ever mentioned for the use of online authentication has been to reduce the impact of piracy on studio revenue during the time critical period prior to physical disc release date.

It is likely that any replication production run of a title after street date would have the Title Key on the disc.

This process is designed to reduce supply side piracy, before the files are uploaded to Torrent sites.

I have seen threads on other forums discussing how quickly Slysoft will crack AACS 2.0. Answer is, they won’t. The AACS and the U.S. pressured Antigua and Slysoft is gone.

[bruceames]

I don't understand that last sentence Ray.

[I KEEL YOU]

Holy cow there are some long posts in this thread. I guess a simple "yes/no" is impossible when trying to find out if online authentication and internet connectivity are required for UHD.

[bruceames]

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

Holy cow there are some long posts in this thread. I guess a simple "yes/no" is impossible when trying to find out if online authentication and internet connectivity are required for UHD.

Yeah it brings out the passion in some people. I got a 700 word response from typing a simple paragraph. But I do appreciate Ray's posts, which are very informative.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

I don't understand that last sentence Ray.

AACS 1.0( for Blu-ray) was cracked by someone associated with Slysoft.

https://torrentfreak.com/popular-blu...essure-160224/

Originally Posted by I KEEL YOU

Holy cow there are some long posts in this thread. I guess a simple "yes/no" is impossible when trying to find out if online authentication and internet connectivity are required for UHD.

The simple answer is yes, on line authentication requires a one time on line connection to acquire a Title Key if a studio decides to use it for a particular release. It is optional for the studio. If it is used, it will likely be for some future Blockbuster with high demand for the UHD BR. All UHD BR players must support it. It is a mandatory specification for players. The studios most likely to use online authentication are Sony, Fox, Warner and Disney. Warner and Disney are founding members of AACS.

[bruceames]

Ray, is it possible to have internet authentication on an enabled disc ONLY when it is played before the street date? For example, let's say The Peanuts Movie has it. The street date is 3/8. Can the system work where the disc will only need authentication only before that date? There could be some internal clock in the player perhaps?

Or will that disc always need authentication on first use in any player because it's not possible to verify the date without an internet connection?

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by bruceames.

Ray, is it possible to have internet authentication on an enabled disc ONLY when it is played before the street date? For example, let's say The Peanuts Movie has it. The street date is 3/8. Can the system work where the disc will only need authentication only before that date? There could be some internal clock in the player perhaps?

Or will that disc always need authentication on first use in any player because it's not possible to verify the date without an internet connection?

A disc requiring online authentication will not contain a Title Key. The content on the disc cannot be decrypted and played without that key. To get the key, the player must ask the AACS gatekeeper server for permission to download the Key from the studio server and deposit it in local memory on the player. The gatekeeper server will only allow that to happen on or after street date. Once the Title Key is in player memory, you can play the disc without an internet connection. Nothing I have read has this working any other way.

An interesting derivative application of this process might involve a time limited key, whereby the Title Key times out on the player after a specific number of plays or period of time, but I have never seen that discussed, nor have I seen anything like that in the BDA specifications.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

I don't care if it's all so easy peasy. The niggling little detail is what happens if you can no longer get the online authentication key.

You better hope that you never have to change players or that player wears out or glitches. Otherwise you are totally screwed.

And that's why you do not want AACS 2.0a (enhanced) to ever go into effect.

[raygendreau]

Originally Posted by FilmFreakosaurus

I don't care if it's all so easy peasy. The niggling little detail is what happens if you can no longer get the online authentication key.

You better hope that you never have to change players or that player wears out or glitches. Otherwise you are totally screwed.

And that's why you do not want AACS 2.0a to ever go into effect.

We are getting into the realm of speculation here, but, if you had a disc requiring online authentication and you had to replace the player that the Title Key had previously been loaded on, you could rightfully claim that the disc was defective because it would not play on your new player. I doubt that there would be any difficulty in getting the studio to replace the disc with one that contained a Title Key.

I think what you meant by the AACS 2.0a (enhanced) comment is that you hope the studios never use it. It is already in effect.

[FilmFreakosaurus]

Originally Posted by raygendreau

I doubt that there would be any difficulty in getting the studio to replace the disc with one that contained a Title Key.

I think what you meant by the AACS 2.0a (enhanced) comment is that you hope the studios never use it. It is already in effect.

You really believe they would actually be that nice? The studios and game companies never have before when prior authentication-required media went dark.

They would just say "tough sh!t."

AACS 2.0a Enhanced is what you call a poisoned pill.