What's the deal with Blu-ray, just hype?

[Pablo Neruda]

I've always been a fan of Blu-ray, but the tide is turning.

It looks like every HD-DVD movie release is better than the not so good Blu-ray movie releases.

All HD-DVD discs are 30GB, and the Blu-ray are only 25GB!

Sony has lead us to believe that Blu-ray is superior to HD-DVD wich turns out to be false. In reality HD-DVD uses better video encoding and has larger storage space.

What's the deal with Blu-ray, just hype?

[Blue]

I have not as yet seen either, but on paper, Video for both Blu Ray and HD-DVD are the same. What is being compared is Toshiba vs Samsung NOT Blu Ray vs HD-DVD. It will be interesting to compare Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic or the one I'm really interested in the Philips. Sony so far has only released MPEG-2 modified (which has apparenlty been enhanced for HD) who knows what codec Fox will release their movies in, (I bet Warner and Paramount will use the same codec for both formats). As far as I can see Blu Ray has only 2 Advantages
1. Massive industry backing, Hardware, Software (movies) and the computing industry.
2. Capacity - this is not that relevant for movies (however I suspect long movies such as the latest Superman may have problems with 30GB no matter what compression format is used) but in the computing world. I think with Dell, Apple, HP, Sun and Microsoft all in the mix. This is no longer consumer electronics or IT. There is now a merger (at least we get one merger), just look at what is inside the Toshiba HD-DVD player.

[AV_Integrated]

Originally Posted by Pablo Neruda

I've always been a fan of Blu-ray, but the tide is turning.

How could you support Blu-ray at all when you don't know the facts about the format to begin with?

Originally Posted by Pablo Neruda

It looks like every HD-DVD movie release is better than the not so good Blu-ray movie releases.

Absolutely - this is the heart of what is being focussed on now as either MPEG2 must go or single layer discs must go.

Originally Posted by Pablo Neruda

All HD-DVD discs are 30GB, and the Blu-ray are only 25GB!

All DUAL layer HD-DVD discs are 30GB - all SINGLE layer HD-DVD discs are 15GB. Blu-ray is currently only releasing single layer discs for their movies.

Originally Posted by Pablo Neruda

Sony has lead us to believe that Blu-ray is superior to HD-DVD wich turns out to be false. In reality HD-DVD uses better video encoding and has larger storage space.

Blu-ray is not superior because the first player from Samsung and the first movies released are sub-par for specifically known reasons... therefore SONY lied about everything Blu-ray related? Geez, you should become a politician if that's how your logic works. HD-DVD still lacks a ton of studio support and only has one manufacturer actually making hardware at this time. It is a lot easier to go to VC-1/AVC or dual layer discs than it will be to get half a dozen studios and consumer electronics manufacturers to endorse your product.

Originally Posted by Pablo Neruda

What's the deal with Blu-ray, just hype?

Hype implies a lie. Failing to see the potential that Blu-ray has is sad though. Blu-ray is DEFINITELY not 100% there yet. It isn't hype and dual layer discs are in the process of having the kinks worked out of manufacturing. I do not know about new authoring software that may be in the works to master discs, but would think that something is in the works with that as well. I do know that in a recent review, The Digtial Bits saw the Pioneer next to the Samsung and that the author said one of the MPEG2 demo clips was flat out the BEST piece of HD video he had seen in his life. That says a lot for MPEG2 not being the issue - but 25GB being the issue.

Sorry - kinda hijacked the post... but want people to have it clear in their head why Blu-ray looks so poor at this time. I personally wouldn't have released it at all. I would've waited a few months to enact VC-1 or AVC at the very least.

[zombie]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Sorry - kinda hijacked the post... but want people to have it clear in their head why Blu-ray looks so poor at this time. I personally wouldn't have released it at all. I would've waited a few months to enact VC-1 or AVC at the very least.

No problem. I separated this into its own thread. And I fully agree, Blu-ray should not have been launched until they used VC1.

[AV_Integrated]

Originally Posted by nyg

No problem. I separated this into its own thread. And I fully agree, Blu-ray should not have been launched until they used VC1.

I do think it is worth noting that in the Digital Bits initial review the author gets to see the actual Blu-ray test disc which has all formats on it and he states that there is one clip, in MPEG2 format, that he considers the best showing of HD material he has seen in his life.

I don't consider MPEG2 to be the wrong codec at all - but you gotta give it room to breathe. 25GB isn't going to cut it. I expect, in reality, when HD starts to be the norm for all the camcorders and on-set taping of everything, 50GB will still be pushing it with VC-1/AVC as all the content, including the 'special features' will be presented in HD.

[Pablo Neruda]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

How could you support Blu-ray at all when you don't know the facts about the format to begin with?

I know that I don't know all the facts about Blu-ray, but I have favoured Blu-ray because it looked to me that it would be the superior format, at least technically. It may still have the potetial to be better, but it can't possibly be a smart move to realease Blu-ray movies that are between DVD and HD-DVD in quality. I still hope Blu-ray delivers though.

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Absolutely - this is the heart of what is being focussed on now as either MPEG2 must go or single layer discs must go.

Or both of the above

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

All DUAL layer HD-DVD discs are 30GB - all SINGLE layer HD-DVD discs are 15GB. Blu-ray is currently only releasing single layer discs for their movies.

My formulation was not good, I know this. My point is, Blu-ray can brag all they want about having larger storage capasity, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter when the discs are only 25GB. Are the dual layer 50GB discs just vaporware/futureware? They're even talking about having made four layer discs.

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Blu-ray is not superior because the first player from Samsung and the first movies released are sub-par for specifically known reasons... therefore SONY lied about everything Blu-ray related? Geez, you should become a politician if that's how your logic works. HD-DVD still lacks a ton of studio support and only has one manufacturer actually making hardware at this time. It is a lot easier to go to VC-1/AVC or dual layer discs than it will be to get half a dozen studios and consumer electronics manufacturers to endorse your product.

Well, I'm not saying they lied about everything Blu-ray related. I'm just dissapointed I guess, I had the impression Blu-ray was gonna be better than HD-DVD. It still can be, it still has the potential. It's just doesn't look good when HD-DVD is much cheaper and better for movie playback, for now at least.

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Hype implies a lie. Failing to see the potential that Blu-ray has is sad though. Blu-ray is DEFINITELY not 100% there yet. It isn't hype and dual layer discs are in the process of having the kinks worked out of manufacturing. I do not know about new authoring software that may be in the works to master discs, but would think that something is in the works with that as well. I do know that in a recent review, The Digtial Bits saw the Pioneer next to the Samsung and that the author said one of the MPEG2 demo clips was flat out the BEST piece of HD video he had seen in his life. That says a lot for MPEG2 not being the issue - but 25GB being the issue.

I agree with what you say. Only I don't think that hype is as strong as a lie, and I do still see potential in Blu-ray. Just that they have got off on the wrong foot.

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Sorry - kinda hijacked the post... but want people to have it clear in their head why Blu-ray looks so poor at this time. I personally wouldn't have released it at all. I would've waited a few months to enact VC-1 or AVC at the very least.

Agreed.

(also. I aplogise for my english, it is not my native language)

[Psiweaver]

Blu-Ray was realeased too early and now needs to make up for it.

[hmurchison]

Pablo Neruda

You English is just fine..in fact better than many native English speakers.

I agree that Sony oversold Blu-Ray and then underdelivered. I'm unhappy that they hamstrung the initial release of movies because they wanted to use a codec that they got royalties on. I look forward to non Sony owned studios avoiding this rectal cranial inversion and delivering Blu-Ray movies in VC-1 and AVC.

I think 50GB discs will be out early 2007 but if they use MPEG2 then they are functionally still lower than 30GB HD DVD because VC-1 is really twice as efficient. In fact Ben Waggoner the codec master says Microsofts new encoder should be able to match the quality of today's releases at about 12Mbps. Wowzer!!

[Psiweaver]

still some compression though which will leave artifacts i'd prefer as uncompressed as possible.

[AV_Integrated]

Pablo - Your English is excellent as said, and I definitely didn't say what I did as an attack. There is a lot of let down to a lot of people due to the very poor kickoff from Blu-ray. Anyone who isn't disappointed... well, are they blind?

I'm not suprised that the Samsung player itself has some issues (poor HDMI, processing, etc.) - it is Samsung after all. But, the thought process that said 'Let's release these lousy looking movies.' was pure insanity!

I have heard that it isn't as easy as just handing over a nice VC-1/AVC movie and having it reproduced - it must be mastered using Blu-ray authoring tools - and the first tools available only utilize MPEG2. Drrrrr... what were they thinking!

I have a lot of patience for this format. Six months is no time at all - heck, I'll have a new kid to deal with around Thanksgiving - then time will fly by! But, my disappointment is right up there with everyone elses.

My hope, has not been shaken at all, and Blu-ray stumbling a bit is not even in the ballpark of a bunch of companies going - "Blu-ray is lousy, we are all switching to HD-DVD!" The day that happens I would be seriously worried about the long term potential for Blu-ray Disc. I'm not betting on that occurring anytime soon.

[Psiweaver]

Yeah like anything new there are a few bumps in the road

[hometheaterhookup]

There is NO movie out now on BD that is recorded in native 1080P.. Super HI-REZ BD movies are not coming out until next year I hear. So that is one major issue why it looks SO horrible through HDMI on the Samsung BD-P1000. I am a Senior Sales at Circuit City, and we have the Samsung BD-P1000 hooked up to the Samsung HLR-5687W(which it says to be 1080P) Of course that is not true either, as it only accepts a native 1080P signal through their PC input Soooooooooo... I am waiting for the Sony XBR2 or the Samsung HLS-5688w (8th Generation Samsung DLP) with will accept a native 1080P through the component and/or HDMI input. Hooking the BD-P1000 to one of those TV's should be much better, yet wont know how great the picture can be until you have 3 things. A.) 1080P BD player B.) a TV that accepts a 1080P signal through component and/or HDMI and C.) A BD movie in a native 1080P recorded format.
For right now, we have to settle with 720P output or 1080i on our BD-P1000 player .. Looks really good, yet not what it should be or can be.
And another frustrating issue, all the REPS have these "DEMO" disc that claims to have 1080P recorded stuff on it. It's like a teaser.. very annoying.. All they do is claim that they're better than their competitors, and try to make a buck..

[AV_Integrated]

Second time you posted the same thing... why do you say that current BD is not recorded at 1080p?

Look at the back of the disc - it says 1080p right on it.

More info?

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/ - Look at the disc reviews - specs all say 1080p. So, what exactly is not 1080p about these 1080p movies? And, why do you think (despite reviews stating the contrary) that the HDMI connection with the Samsung is not at fault?

[Psiweaver]

he's just a silly man who doesn't really know what he's talking about.

[hometheaterhookup]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Second time you posted the same thing... why do you say that current BD is not recorded at 1080p?

Look at the back of the disc - it says 1080p right on it.

More info?

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/ - Look at the disc reviews - specs all say 1080p. So, what exactly is not 1080p about these 1080p movies? And, why do you think (despite reviews stating the contrary) that the HDMI connection with the Samsung is not at fault?

So everything you read, you believe it? Just because it says it on the back, it HAS to be? All the old titles that are out now on BD are upconverted/simulated/processed whatever. They're NOT mastered/recorded in native/original 1080p/60.. I've seen 1080p, and all those movies are NOT 1080p. That's why I stated what I said before. Also, I am not a fan of MPEG2. Real HD quality is MPEG4. I like where BD is going, yet I like the fact that HD-DVD uses MPEG4

And the answer to your second question... I tested 2 BD-P1000's brand new opened HDMI cables, different BD movies, different TV's... all grainy, artifacts all over the screen.. DISAPPOINTING

[BTBuck1]

You do understand when a film is digitally stored from the Film master source it is saved in a resolution approx 5 times higher than that of the almighty 1080p?

[BTBuck1]

Originally Posted by hmurchison

avoiding this rectal cranial inversion and delivering Blu-Ray movies in VC-1 and AVC.

In case anyone wants to see what this looks like:

[AV_Integrated]

Originally Posted by hometheaterhookup

So everything you read, you believe it? Just because it says it on the back, it HAS to be? All the old titles that are out now on BD are upconverted/simulated/processed whatever. They're NOT mastered/recorded in native/original 1080p/60.. I've seen 1080p, and all those movies are NOT 1080p. That's why I stated what I said before. Also, I am not a fan of MPEG2. Real HD quality is MPEG4. I like where BD is going, yet I like the fact that HD-DVD uses MPEG4

Okay, just wanted to make sure you were as clueless as you sounded.

Movies are stored at 1080/24p, just as they are supposed to be. The resolution is very much 1080p. The horrible image is due to not enough space with the use of MPEG2. So, either more space is necessary, or a better codec needs to be used - either will resolve the issue.

Yes, you have tested it and it looks lousy, this is established - but doesn't change that 1080p is in fact in use currently. 1080/60p is not what is, or should be, used with film since film originally is shot at 24 frames per second. I have very little interest in 1080/60p as very little (no?) content is shot that way. I am very interested in films and 1080/24p.

[Psiweaver]

Yeah he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Remember MPEG2 and MPEG4 are just forms of compression and supposedly both look the same, We haven't seen good examples of both yet.

[dpomp]

Originally Posted by Psiweaver

Yeah he isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Remember MPEG2 and MPEG4 are just forms of compression and supposedly both look the same, We haven't seen good examples of both yet.