Auralex GRAMMA ? Anyone got one?

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by Robert1986

I am in need of something like this to boost my subs performance. Seems like a solid peice of equipment but I'd like to hear some user feedback.

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolati...ion_gramma.asp

I've got one of those coming, getting it this week-end.
I went with the Gramma because the SubDude is too small for my Paradigm Servo15v2.

Here is what it looks like on the GRAMMA from another 15v2 owner:

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by DavePS3

No way! Are you telling me your ears cannot pinpoint bass below 80??? Mine certainly can! Hey, all the tech info aside... take your side-firing sub and face it down at the floor, say 2 inches above and tell me you can't hear a difference in quality, man! ...and vice versa for a bottom-firing. There are numbers and there is reality. Theory and practice and while on paper, your calculations may make sense, in the real world... in peoples homes, there are vast differences. What makes perfect sound in an isolation booth doesn't in an irregular room. Any installer who does more than HTiB's will tell you that. Try it yourself, seriously. Bass is NOT completely non-directional!!! Ask any technician at a speaker manufacturer... not a salesman!

Try test tones below 80 Hz and change the location of the subwoofer. See if you can tell where the bass tones are coming from.

Audio Concepts, Inc. (ACI) is a manufacturer of High-end subwoofers. This is from their FAQ.

Forward vs. Down-Firing Subs
I've been building, testing, and listening to subwoofers since the late 70s. I can state categorically that forward facing subs only have an advantage IF the crossover frequency from the sub to the main speakers is rather high, usually above about 100Hz or so. At these frequencies you are pretty much going to need a pair of subs.

At lower frequencies, there is very little difference in the performance of a down-firing vs. a forward firing sub. If anything, the down firing sub will have a slight advantage in lower perceived distortion at extreme output levels. Why? Because the harmonics, (distortion components), are directional and will be more apparent if the woofer cone is aimed directly at the listener rather than diffused by the floor.

All three of our subwoofer models are available as forward firing units for custom install. Direct A-B comparisons of these models with their down firing "twins" yields no significant difference in sound quality.

Subwoofer sound quality is determined by many factors including: driver design and construction, cabinet design and construction, internal damping, and amplifier design and construction. These factors yield real, measurable and audible differences between subwoofers. Down-firing vs. forward firing is just not a factor.

[DavePS3]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Try test tones below 80 Hz and change the location of the subwoofer. See if you can tell where the bass tones are coming from.

Audio Concepts, Inc. (ACI) is a manufacturer of High-end subwoofers. This is from their FAQ.

80hz is not low to me. 20... 18... that's low. Remember that the comments in your link are coming from a manufacturer who wants to sell what they have. I challenge you to go to an independant retailer and talk to the guys in sales and installations there about what you can hear and what you can't and about acoustics and placement. I can absolutely tell where bass is coming from at 80hz, 70hz, all the way down to 22. Test tones and all. Sure, bass is harder to pick up location from but not impossible. I've heard all the typical stuff but I've been in sales and installations myself. I've sold and installed, Mirage, Energy, Sunfire, Definitive Technology, JM Labs, Boston, Yamaha, both side and bottom firing. I've heard many shelf rattles go away from just changing the facing of the sub. It may seem like Voodoo to you but I assure you guys, it is real and I'm not the only one who noticed changes. Hey, I'm also in a band and I know what I hear and don't hear. Maybe my ears are more sensitive, I dunno but in the store, we proved it to ourselves and customers all the time. I may not be able to tell you the exact square inch the sub is sitting but I can tell from which corner, unless it's in a dedicated fully treated room, that's for damn sure. Jeez, guys, just because you can't pick it up doesn't mean no one can, despite what the white papers say. It's all relative, isn't it? Like watts per channel etc. Stuff on paper is from a certain POV.

[DavePS3]

FYI... I've had off the record talks with the guys at all the above mentioned sub' manufacturers and they all agree except JM Labs and their other rep did agree. On the record? Different matter.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Try test tones below 80 Hz and change the location of the subwoofer. See if you can tell where the bass tones are coming from.

Audio Concepts, Inc. (ACI) is a manufacturer of High-end subwoofers. This is from their FAQ.

I tried to tell him.......

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by DavePS3

80hz is not low to me. 20... 18... that's low. Remember that the comments in your link are coming from a manufacturer who wants to sell what they have. I challenge you to go to an independant retailer and talk to the guys in sales and installations there about what you can hear and what you can't and about acoustics and placement. I can absolutely tell where bass is coming from at 80hz, 70hz, all the way down to 22. Test tones and all. Sure, bass is harder to pick up location from but not impossible. I've heard all the typical stuff but I've been in sales and installations myself. I've sold and installed, Mirage, Energy, Sunfire, Definitive Technology, JM Labs, Boston, Yamaha, both side and bottom firing. I've heard many shelf rattles go away from just changing the facing of the sub. It may seem like Voodoo to you but I assure you guys, it is real and I'm not the only one who noticed changes. Hey, I'm also in a band and I know what I hear and don't hear. Maybe my ears are more sensitive, I dunno but in the store, we proved it to ourselves and customers all the time. I may not be able to tell you the exact square inch the sub is sitting but I can tell from which corner, unless it's in a dedicated fully treated room, that's for damn sure. Jeez, guys, just because you can't pick it up doesn't mean no one can, despite what the white papers say. It's all relative, isn't it? Like watts per channel etc. Stuff on paper is from a certain POV.

Okay Dave, all of us who have studied and gotten our degree in acoustics are stupid as hell, and you have have no education in acoustics, and have golden ears that are better than test equipment, and are the only person who knows about all there is to know about acoustics.

Go to a installer on acoustical issues? Why not go to a chinese restaurant for a good hamburger? Installers do not know crap about acoustics, and neither do retailers. Acousticians know about acoustics, and you do not go to them for room wiring designs.

Okay that is settled

You should really tuck your pride and ego in your back pocket man, it is not helping anyone on this site, not even you.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by DavePS3

FYI... I've had off the record talks with the guys at all the above mentioned sub' manufacturers and they all agree except JM Labs and their other rep did agree. On the record? Different matter.

You really need to stop right here man. Off the record talks, how convient. Not easy to verify huh. You are being rediculous, and you really need to stop now.

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

I've got one of those coming, getting it this week-end.
I went with the Gramma because the SubDude is too small for my Paradigm Servo15v2.

Here is what it looks like on the GRAMMA from another 15v2 owner:

Snip

They don't make one that fits an eD A2-300 do they? I couldn't find one...

Nice sub BTW

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by DavePS3

Axiom??? Yikes!!!!!!

What's wrong with Axiom?

[Driver_King]

Originally Posted by JasonR

What's wrong with Axiom?

I was just going to ask that. Dave, it looks like you're having a bad case of the Mondays.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by JasonR

They don't make one that fits an eD A2-300 do they? I couldn't find one...

Nice sub BTW

Yeah they do, the SubDude - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDude/

Originally Posted by DavePS3

I challenge you to go to an independant retailer and talk to the guys in sales and installations.
I can absolutely tell where bass is coming from at 80hz, 70hz, all the way down to 22.
I've been in sales and installations myself. I've sold and installed
Hey, I'm also in a band and I know what I hear and don't hear.

Dude, stop while you're way behind. This is embarrassing.

Jeez, guys, just because you can't pick it up doesn't mean no one can, despite what the white papers say. It's all relative, isn't it? Like watts per channel etc. Stuff on paper is from a certain POV.

Wrong.

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Yeah they do, the SubDude - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SubDude/

Width 18.00"
Height 18.00"
Depth 21.5"

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=407

It looks like the SubDude is 15x15....

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Width 18.00"
Height 18.00"
Depth 21.5"

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_...roducts_id=407

It looks like the SubDude is 15x15....

Oh they have spikes too, so you don't have the luxury of measuring inwards with feet (you can see the Servo extends out past the sides of the GRAMMA)

I'd go with the Great GRAMMA - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GreatGRAMMA

Because it has spikes though maybe you might find some better isolation feet for those to go on for about half the cost? Herbie's perhaps?

[JasonR]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

Oh they have spikes too, so you don't have the luxury of measuring inwards with feet (you can see the Servo extends out past the sides of the GRAMMA)

I'd go with the Great GRAMMA - http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GreatGRAMMA

Because it has spikes though maybe you might find some better isolation feet for those to go on for about half the cost? Herbie's perhaps?

Can you link me to Herbie's, I am not familiar with them. My main reasoning is the wife has a shelf full of pretties across the room that seems to rattle during heavy bass swells. I would really like to minimize that, while keeping with the asthetics of the room.

[JasonR]

Nevermind, I found them. Will these achieve what I am looking for?


http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/footers.htm

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by JasonR

Nevermind, I found them. Will these achieve what I am looking for?


http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/footers.htm

I would send an e-mail to Herbies to ask them if the Tenderfeet are okay with spikes. Four feet will take up to 80lbs and the A2-300 is 71lbs so you're good there, but they might recommend something else for a spiked bottom so it's probably worth asking them.

Of course if those spikes are detachable you're better off removing them and then just using 4 tenderfeet, in which case you'd not need to ask them anything.

[aramis109]

What are tenderfeet?

I plan on doing something of this nature when I upgrade my sub next year as I have hardwood floors.

*edit* If they're on Herbie's page that explains it- can't get there at work.

[dobyblue]

Originally Posted by aramis109

What are tenderfeet?

I plan on doing something of this nature when I upgrade my sub next year as I have hardwood floors.

*edit* If they're on Herbie's page that explains it- can't get there at work.

Tenderfoot: Individually molded with a unique carbon-filled, platinum-cure silicone formulated in consultation with Wacker Chemie AG of Germany for maximum micro-vibration absorption. Recommended for audio and video components weighing from 4 to 45 pounds (2-20kg). Particularly well-suited for CD/DVD and SACD players, DACs, preamps, power supplies and conditioners, turntables, and small amplifiers. Delivers a full-bodied and quick, highly articulate result with amazing linear extension. Does not "ooze," mar, or discolor surfaces.
Dimensions: 1.1" x 1.1" x .65" tall. (28mm x 28mm x 16.5mm).
Default recommendation: four Tenderfeet per component.

$12/each.

[DavePS3]

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

You really need to stop right here man. Off the record talks, how convient. Not easy to verify huh. You are being rediculous, and you really need to stop now.

Man, are YOU upset!!! You're making a lot of judgement calls that aren't fair. I'm simply telling you what I can hear, what I get from talks with tech's and guys on the floor. If you don't consider that high-end installers know what works where, you show your own ignorance and assume you're the be-all and end-all of your so-called 'field'. Don't be so pious, M'Lord. I even offered you some humor mixed in here earlier but you seem too caught up in yourself and what the books have taught you. Perhaps an idea might be for you to go along on a few high-end installations. Sitting up on a throne decreeing that the peasants are all insane doesn't help you either or this forum. Don't be so closed-minded.

[aramis109]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

$12/each.

Thanks. JasonR, as you'll be looking into this before I do, let me know if you find anything out. I think the subdude or equivalent will be what I look at first but the dimensions might be an issue (hence, tenderfeet). Plus... they kinda look nicer in my opinion.