How to determine if a receiver can matrix a 5.1 audio track into 7.1?

[krizzz]

Is there some standard DSP mode (like ProLogicIIx does for surround signals) that will be listed in the receiver's specs?

From reading this forum I know that the Onkyo 700 line and up does it, but have no idea how people determine that. Also, it seems that some receivers (like the Onkyo 605) can matrix PCM soundtracks but not TrueHD. I would love to compares apples to apples but don't know what I'm looking for. Any help is appreciated.

[Big Daddy]

You should check the the receiver's manual. I don't believe you can get that information from the specs. Just because a receiver supports Dolby Pro Logic IIx, it does not mean that it can matrix individual speakers (e.g., matrix side surrounds only). It may not be a bad idea to call the company and ask them. My Denon 4308ci receiver can do. I have no doubt that receivers from other companies can do it too.

On some receivers, Dolby Prologic IIx can matrix your side surround speakers into the rear speakers. It can also matrix two-channel music/movies into 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 full bandwidth surround sound. It has three modes: Movies, Music, Games. DTS Neo:6 can do the same. Read https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=79734

[aramis109]

I was under the impression that THX-certified receivers were able to take their surround modes and matrix out 5.1.

[nismo604]

You have downloan the manual and look at the flow chart to see what it's capable of. For instance the very popular 605 can matrix 5.1 > 7.1 on anything just as long as it's bitstreamed, however when it gets LPCM such what the PS3 sends it can't. The 705 and 805, whice I have can matrix LPCM. I know that with 606 Onkyo has added LPCM matrixing.

[callas01]

Its interesting, cause I was trying to figure this out too, and didn't think that mid range receivers could do it, but today and yesterday I was watching the Tudors on DVD (DD 5.1) and I have a 6.1 system. I was getting audio out of the 6th speaker. I got up to check, and the sound was independent of the surround left and right, so I surmised that it was be matrixing?

[krizzz]

Originally Posted by nismo604

You have downloan the manual and look at the flow chart to see what it's capable of. For instance the very popular 605 can matrix 5.1 > 7.1 on anything just as long as it's bitstreamed, however when it get LPCM such what the PS3 sends it can't. The 705 and 805, whice I have can matrix LPCM. I know that with 606 Onkyo has added LPCM matrixing.

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm still a little hazy on the formats. Bitstream is completely uncompressed audio, but LPCM is in some format (TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc.)? Or is that completely wrong? I am running a PS3 over optical to standard DD/DTS AVR currently. I know there are limitations to what the PS3 can output (it can do bitstream but not LPCM or vice versa??). I was leaning towards the Onkyo 706, but have seen quite a few posts about problems with the PS3/Onkyo combo having blue dots and jaggies on the screen, so it led me to this point, trying to see what other receivers will do what I am looking to do.

[callas01]

Originally Posted by krizzz

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm still a little hazy on the formats. Bitstream is completely uncompressed audio, but LPCM is in some format (TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc.)? Or is that completely wrong? I am running a PS3 over optical to standard DD/DTS AVR currently. I know there are limitations to what the PS3 can output (it can do bitstream but not LPCM or vice versa??). I was leaning towards the Onkyo 706, but have seen quite a few posts about problems with the PS3/Onkyo combo having blue dots and jaggies on the screen, so it led me to this point, trying to see what other receivers will do what I am looking to do.

LPCM = Uncompressed
DTS HD & DD THD is compressed to save space on the Blu-ray discs, but is decoded as uncompressed audio (think of it as a zip file)

[nismo604]

Originally Posted by krizzz

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm still a little hazy on the formats. Bitstream is completely uncompressed audio, but LPCM is in some format (TrueHD, DTS-MA, etc.)? Or is that completely wrong? I am running a PS3 over optical to standard DD/DTS AVR currently. I know there are limitations to what the PS3 can output (it can do bitstream but not LPCM or vice versa??). I was leaning towards the Onkyo 706, but have seen quite a few posts about problems with the PS3/Onkyo combo having blue dots and jaggies on the screen, so it led me to this point, trying to see what other receivers will do what I am looking to do.

LPCM= uncompressed audio
TrueHD/DTS-MA= LPCM that is compressed but once decoded is LPCM.

LPCM=TrueHD=DTS-MA

Bitstreaming is what you do if you want to let your AVR do the decoding. The PS3 can bitstream lossy codec ie. regular Dolby Digital and DTS but due to hardware limitations the PS3 can't bitstream TrueHD and DTS-MA. What the PS3 can do is decode TrueHD/DTS-MA and pass it on as LPCM via HDMI only. Since you're hooked up via optical your best option is to bitstream regular DD/DTS as LPCM output is only restricted to 2 channel on optical. Unfortunately you will not be able to take advantage of lossless sound without a new AVR or get a standalone that can decode and has analog outs to send it to your AVR, that is provided that your AVR has 5.1/7.1 analog inputs.

[krizzz]

Originally Posted by nismo604

LPCM= uncompressed audio
TrueHD/DTS-MA= LPCM that is compressed but once decoded is LPCM.

LPCM=TrueHD=DTS-MA

Bitstreaming is what you do if you want to let your AVR do the decoding. The PS3 can bitstream lossy codec ie. regular Dolby Digital and DTS but due to hardware limitations the PS3 can't bitstream TrueHD and DTS-MA. What the PS3 can do is decode TrueHD/DTS-MA and pass it on as LPCM via HDMI only. Since you're hooked up via optical your best option is to bitstream regular DD/DTS as LPCM output is only restricted to 2 channel on optical. Unfortunately you will not be able to take advantage of lossless sound without a new AVR or get a standalone that can decode and has analog outs to send it to your AVR, that is provided that your AVR has 5.1/7.1 analog inputs.

You definitely seem to know you're stuff, so I'm going to ask the $50,000 question...assuming I get the right AVR (Onkyo 706, Pioneer 1018, or other) that will decode all of the formats over HDMI and do 5.1 to 7.1 matrix sound, how do I want to set up my gear? PS3 on Bitstream? PS3 on LPCM? Decode on the receiver? (Note: I read about 5 pages of the sticky and couldn't makes heads or tails of what was the best approach). Thanks for all the good info!

[nismo604]

Originally Posted by krizzz

You definitely seem to know you're stuff, so I'm going to ask the $50,000 question...assuming I get the right AVR (Onkyo 706, Pioneer 1018, or other) that will decode all of the formats over HDMI and do 5.1 to 7.1 matrix sound, how do I want to set up my gear? PS3 on Bitstream? PS3 on LPCM? Decode on the receiver? (Note: I read about 5 pages of the sticky and couldn't makes heads or tails of what was the best approach). Thanks for all the good info!

Honestly if you're going to continue using the PS3 as your player you don't need an AVR that can decode TrueHD and DTS-MA only a receiver that accepts LPCM over HDMI.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by nismo604

I know that with 606 Onkyo has added LPCM matrixing.

Is this a new firmware update?

[nismo604]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

Is this a new firmware update?

I don't think so, if you can select PIIx your good to go.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by nismo604

I don't think so, if you can select PIIx your good to go.

In that case..... I believe you are mistaken.... the 606 can't matrix PCM.

[nismo604]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

In that case..... I believe you are mistaken.... the 606 can't matrix PCM.

I think you are mistaken it's been confirmed by people on AVS. The 605 could not but the 606 can. Are you using a PS3? if you are you should see Multichannel on your display right? Now on your remote press listening mode movie till PIIx appears and voila matrixed 7.1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...x#post14314261

[peterfabian]

Originally Posted by nismo604

I think you are mistaken it's been confirmed by people on AVS. The 605 could not but the 606 can. Are you using a PS3? if you are you should see Multichannel on your display right? Now on your remote press listening mode movie till PIIx appears and voila matrixed 7.1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...x#post14314261

That is true. i have the 606 also and that feature exists. unluckly i haven't got still the 2 extra speakers but in compensation i have the front speakers bi-amped. i will get the other 2 surround speakers soon for getting 7.1 audio channels.

[Rob J in WNY]

Originally Posted by callas01

LPCM = Uncompressed
DTS HD & DD THD is compressed to save space on the Blu-ray discs, but is decoded as uncompressed audio (think of it as a zip file)

Absolutely correct. Just as a Zip File compresses data size without loss, so does DD TrueHD and DTS HD-MA. Bit for bit, identical to LPCM.

- Rob J

[krizzz]

So if I'm following y'all:

Onkyo x06 receiver <--HDMI--> PS3
PS3 = LPCM out
AVR = PLIIx
5.1 --> 7.1
Krizzz =

Yes?

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by nismo604

I think you are mistaken it's been confirmed by people on AVS. The 605 could not but the 606 can. Are you using a PS3? if you are you should see Multichannel on your display right? Now on your remote press listening mode movie till PIIx appears and voila matrixed 7.1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...x#post14314261

I'd always read that you couldn't.... so I never even tried it. I did try it last night and you can. However.. it significantly alters the entire sound field. I know when I use Dolby EX to matrix 5.1 Dolby.... the sound itself doesn't really change..... you just get sound out of your rears as well. Using PLIIX to matrix out the PCM the entire sound field was significantly changed. I'm not sure I'd use it..... because to me the whole point of using PCM is to hear the soundtrack as it was originally mixed.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by robinandtami

I'd always read that you couldn't.... so I never even tried it. I did try it last night and you can. However.. it significantly alters the entire sound field. I know when I use Dolby EX to matrix 5.1 Dolby.... the sound itself doesn't really change..... you just get sound out of your rears as well. Using PLIIX to matrix out the PCM the entire sound field was significantly changed. I'm not sure I'd use it..... because to me the whole point of using PCM is to hear the soundtrack as it was originally mixed.

Matrixing the entire PCM sound to Dolby Pro Logic IIx is not a good idea. Dolby PLIIx was originally designed to matrix two channel music into full band-width multi-channels. Some receivers like my Denon 4308ci allow to only matrix the side surround channels into the rear channels. It doesn't touch the front speakers.

[Uniquely]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

Matrixing the entire PCM sound to Dolby Pro Logic IIx is not a good idea. Dolby PLIIx was originally designed to matrix two channel music into full band-width multi-channels. Some receivers like my Denon 4308ci allow to only matrix the side surround channels into the rear channels. It doesn't touch the front speakers.

It's hard to describe exactly WHAT was different...... but it was a very noticable difference. The entire sound field got a good bit louder.... and it seemed very heavy in the rear of the room..... much more so than just having added sound coming from the rear surrounds.