4K Ultra HD releases not offering the quality of what the format is capable of

[HD Goofnut]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Kinda proves the point about it not really being an accurate representation of the presentation.

And Peter has returned.

[ROSS.T.G.]

The reality is it IS the next big leap in AV.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by ROSS.T.G.

The reality is it IS the next big leap in AV.

The problem is the content is there but the displays aren't yet.

Most TVs, even flagships aren't taking full advantage of content graded on a 4,000 nit dolby pulsar monitor. Even that which is graded on a 1,000 nit sony OLED isn't perfectly replicated on home TVs due to ABL and dimming. This doesn't even account for atrocious tone mapping on lower end units that makes HDR images look like dim trash.

A few years down the line I suspect we will be seeing the same content look vastly different.

Not sure why everyone was in such a hurry to launch 4K UHD blu. Or even HDR tvs for that matter. Static metadata shouldn't exist. TVs without dynamic metadata should have never been released. Seems like everyone was trying to jump the gun before the pipelines were ready.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

The problem is the content is there but the displays aren't yet.

Most TVs, even flagships aren't taking full advantage of content graded on a 4,000 nit dolby pulsar monitor.

Even that which is graded on a 1,000 nit sony OLED isn't perfectly replicated on home TVs due to ABL and dimming.

This doesn't even account for atrocious tone mapping on lower end units that makes HDR images look like dim trash.

A few years down the line I suspect we will be seeing the same content look vastly different.

This is disappointing, and something I've actually heard about with regard to LG's OLEDs -- do some 4K titles actually come across as being dim on certain TVs?

I hope this doesn't happen with my new Samsung 8 Series...

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

Not sure why everyone was in such a hurry to launch 4K UHD blu. Or even HDR tvs for that matter. Static metadata shouldn't exist. TVs without dynamic metadata should have never been released. Seems like everyone was trying to jump the gun before the pipelines were ready.

This is like saying "Lossy audio shouldn't exist". That players incapable of decoding DTS:MA and TrueHD 'shouldn't exist' when talking about blu-ray. But they did. And on down through every format exists these things.

Avoiding early adoption your only recourse

[Doctorossi]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

Not sure why everyone was in such a hurry to launch 4K UHD blu. Or even HDR tvs for that matter. Static metadata shouldn't exist. TVs without dynamic metadata should have never been released. Seems like everyone was trying to jump the gun before the pipelines were ready.

Gee... where have we seen that kind of thing before? Oh, I know- this industry!

[chip75]

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

This is disappointing, and something I've actually heard about with regard to LG's OLEDs -- do some 4K titles actually come across as being dim on certain TVs?

It all depends on the player and TV. As a rule of thumb if tone-mapping is involved then if you want more detail you lose brightness (as tone-mapping will accommodate the detail by dimming the image) and if you want more brightness you lose detail (as it will be clipped in an attempt to provide the brightest image the display can handle).

It would make sense that each TV or player would have at least three HDR settings and just label them as Brightness, Detail and Source (which would provide a balance), to provide the best tone-mapping options. As well as an option to set the target luminace for HDR to SDR conversion (liek we can do with software players).

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by nick4amber

This is like saying "Lossy audio shouldn't exist". That players incapable of decoding DTS:MA and TrueHD 'shouldn't exist' when talking about blu-ray. But they did. And on down through every format exists these things.

Avoiding early adoption your only recourse

No.its not really like that at all. Static metadata is a horrible solution and some would argue doesn't even need to exist.

It creates way more problems than it solves. Hdr rolling out with dynamic metadata from the start, if any at all, would have made the impact much greater.

I mean you do realize that some tvs just throw away metAdata and ignore it anyways?

[jibucha]

Samsung (yours) :: certainly 'dim' is not applicable to your display (certainly, very bright - indeed)

LG OLED (my C7) :: it was so bright (too bright) when i got it over a year ago now, that i simply could not watch HDR10 content without 'sunglasses' (really) :: however, after managing adjustments for many weeks, i was able to 'tone it down to an acceptable 'dim' light level that i could enjoy watching content 'without sunglasses'

note :: i could go on and on, but this should be enough and not what the prevailing representation of 'dim' OLED

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

This is disappointing, and something I've actually heard about with regard to LG's OLEDs -- do some 4K titles actually come across as being dim on certain TVs?

I hope this doesn't happen with my new Samsung 8 Series...

[HDTV1080P]

Over the years projectors and flat panels well improve on the quality of the HDR they offer. Plus now we need displays with 4-6 different HDR formats depending on if the source is streaming or 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray. The ideal display should support all the HDR formats.


Also consumers with big enough homes well one day purchase larger screen projectors and flat panels. My point is if people get a larger display and start sitting closer to the display they well see the resolution difference between 4K and 1080P. The problem we have today is the screens are to small and people sit to far away to take full advantage of 4K Ultra HD source material.

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by jibucha

Samsung (yours) :: certainly 'dim' is not applicable to your display (certainly, very bright - indeed)

LG OLED (my C7) :: it was so bright (too bright) when i got it over a year ago now, that i simply could not watch HDR10 content without 'sunglasses' (really) :: however, after managing adjustments for many weeks, i was able to 'tone it down to an acceptable 'dim' light level that i could enjoy watching content 'without sunglasses'

note :: i could go on and on, but this should be enough and not what the prevailing representation of 'dim' OLED

Yeah, I was wondering where that idea came from. Dim? Not my OLED. It gets plenty bright enough and when you combine that with perfect blacks you end up with an amazing image. How bright does a TV have to get? When did that become some gauge for how good a TV is anyways? Seems to have been started by the LCD crowd.

Sure, I suppose if you watch movies and shows in rooms with copious amounts of sunlight and whatever then perhaps all those NITS might help. But who’s doing that anyways? Any type of critical viewing takes place in darkened rooms with minimal lighting or none at all. That’s how you’re supposed to do it.

Whatever. Let the NIT wars continue. I’ll just sit back and keep enjoying the glorious PQ on my "dim" OLED.

[Geoff D]

Originally Posted by alexanderg823

The problem is the content is there but the displays aren't yet.

Most TVs, even flagships aren't taking full advantage of content graded on a 4,000 nit dolby pulsar monitor. Even that which is graded on a 1,000 nit sony OLED isn't perfectly replicated on home TVs due to ABL and dimming. This doesn't even account for atrocious tone mapping on lower end units that makes HDR images look like dim trash.

A few years down the line I suspect we will be seeing the same content look vastly different.

Not sure why everyone was in such a hurry to launch 4K UHD blu. Or even HDR tvs for that matter. Static metadata shouldn't exist. TVs without dynamic metadata should have never been released. Seems like everyone was trying to jump the gun before the pipelines were ready.

I agree with your points (though 4K-nit displays have other hurdles to overcome, e.g. power consumption, and the Pulsar is liquid cooled!) but as to the bolded - seriously? 4K streaming was already a thing for a good three years before UHD disc showed up and the BDA knew it. If they wanted to get a new 4K format out and not have it strangled at birth by the ubiquity of 4K streaming then they felt they had to launch it when they did (Sony wanted it out a couple of years before that!).

Static metadata is not the problem, it's the wild wild west of everyone implementing that metadata differently that is the problem, so if the BDA had included some kind of generic tone mapper into the HDR spec (in either the TV or player end) then we'd all have been a hell of a lot better off. There was an attempt at setting out the means for mapping PQ in BT.2390 but it still never really offered a solution that every manufacturer could get behind, most probably for the reason that the manufacturers don't want to have their TVs all running the same standardised processing. Dat special sauce game is strong in the AV industry which is why UHD HDR has been this gigantic balls-up, though the irony of some of the bigger names actually paying for the privilege of having a more standardised system (dat dobly) is not lost on me.

But, as I've said before, I've seen the latest thing in TV get launched and then continually revised and updated over and over and over again as it gets fiddled with on the fly and as new tech comes and goes. Not that that excuses the Great HDR Cluster****, oh god no, but the more things change the more they remain the same.

[alexanderg823]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I agree with your points (though 4K-nit displays have other hurdles to overcome, e.g. power consumption, and the Pulsar is liquid cooled!) but as to the bolded - seriously? 4K streaming was already a thing for a good three years before UHD disc showed up and the BDA knew it. If they wanted to get a new 4K format out and not have it strangled at birth by the ubiquity of 4K streaming then they felt they had to launch it when they did (Sony wanted it out a couple of years before that!).

While there's no denying what you're saying here, I will say that I kind of just lumped 4K UHD Blu Ray and 4K UHD streaming into the same category as a "single" format for better or for worse - They both are experiencing the same exact issues in regards to the content being far ahead of the displays (and that's just TODAY imagine years ago when streaming 4K HDR launched).

Static metadata is not the problem, it's the wild wild west of everyone implementing that metadata differently that is the problem, so if the BDA had included some kind of generic tone mapper into the HDR spec (in either the TV or player end) then we'd all have been a hell of a lot better off. There was an attempt at setting out the means for mapping PQ in BT.2390 but it still never really offered a solution that every manufacturer could get behind, most probably for the reason that the manufacturers don't want to have their TVs all running the same standardised processing. Dat special sauce game is strong in the AV industry which is why UHD HDR has been this gigantic balls-up, though the irony of some of the bigger names actually paying for the privilege of having a more standardised system (dat dobly) is not lost on me.

But, as I've said before, I've seen the latest thing in TV get launched and then continually revised and updated over and over and over again as it gets fiddled with on the fly and as new tech comes and goes. Not that that excuses the Great HDR Cluster****, oh god no, but the more things change the more they remain the same.

Well I definitely think static metadata is a problem, especially in the context of metadata being a "necessity" that isn't really necessary in the first place.

Sony and LG both just completely ignore the metadata now completely since as we've seen, following the static metadata over the entire film when the displays are so far off from the specs typically provides a bad image.

We've got Sony on one hand that just ignores the metadata displays the entire content on the standard PQ curve and clips when information surpasses what the display is capable of regardless of what any metadata says. LG on the other hand discards the metadata and analyzes on a frame by frame basis and tone maps when the specific frame falls outside of what the display is capable of - A little more complex but is a great solution.

Static metadata is just such a mess. HDR10+ isn't even needed if the display has a decent processor on it since it can just do all of that itself, but mainly to increase PQ on REALLY junk TVs with truly cheap processing.
Dolby Vision obviously provides a standardized experience in mind, which is why it's obviously the best.

That's probably why some of the big dogs are going with Dolby Vision in the first place - Because everything else is such a mess that they can't guarantee their own "takes"/"methods" of interpreting the HDR10 image will actually look better than a competitor's in every situation. At least DV gives a nice marketing premium checkbox.

[Geoff D]

I like Sony's implementation, you've just said about how rubbish static metadata is so why not just ignore it completely? Works like gangbusters on the ZD9. LG's active tone mapping does what you say it does but it introduces other issues, or so I've heard. Their static mapping is the worst of the lot.

[IntelliVolume]

Originally Posted by jibucha

Samsung (yours) :: certainly 'dim' is not applicable to your display (certainly, very bright - indeed)

LG OLED (my C7) :: it was so bright (too bright) when i got it over a year ago now, that i simply could not watch HDR10 content without 'sunglasses' (really) :: however, after managing adjustments for many weeks, i was able to 'tone it down to an acceptable 'dim' light level that i could enjoy watching content 'without sunglasses'

note :: i could go on and on, but this should be enough and not what the prevailing representation of 'dim' OLED

Thank you for confirming this; I am planning on setting the TV in Standard picture mode to begin with, once I get everything set up (still waiting on our cabinet maker to fix our entertainment center so it can hold the new set) and see how that looks with the default settings. If everything is too bright with cable/DVD/BD playback, I'll whip out some setup discs and adjust brightness, color, contrast, et al.

Are there commercially-available calibration discs for 4K/UHD yet?

[Jar Jar Stinks]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

blah blah blah, upscales blah blah,

So, by the number of likes your comment got, I'm assuming 2K upscales are a-ok? Are 4K discs as good as they can be?

I don't know much about 4K. Don't have a player and I haven't viewed a 4K disc.

[ronboster]

Originally Posted by Jar Jar Stinks

So, by the number of likes your comment got, I'm assuming 2K upscales are a-ok? Are 4K discs as good as they can be?

I don't know much about 4K. Don't have a player and I haven't viewed a 4K disc.

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread...6&highlight=2k

[DJJez]

[nick4Knight]

Originally Posted by Jar Jar Stinks

So, by the number of likes your comment got, I'm assuming 2K upscales are a-ok? Are 4K discs as good as they can be? I don't know much about 4K. Don't have a player and I haven't viewed a 4K disc.

[jibucha]

calibration discs (UHD/HDR/Dolby Vision)? :: not for awhile (to the best of my knowledge)

if you contact me (PM) when you're ready (LG OLED) i will send you settings information (mine) that may be helpful (for a start/contrast to begin with - they're entirely subjective, but i favor a natural/realistic picture quality)

Originally Posted by IntelliVolume

Thank you for confirming this; I am planning on setting the TV in Standard picture mode to begin with, once I get everything set up (still waiting on our cabinet maker to fix our entertainment center so it can hold the new set) and see how that looks with the default settings. If everything is too bright with cable/DVD/BD playback, I'll whip out some setup discs and adjust brightness, color, contrast, et al.

Are there commercially-available calibration discs for 4K/UHD yet?