HDR+Subtitles: The extreme eye strain & PHYSICAL PAIN suffered by disabled consumers.

[figrin_dan]

I find that watching OLEDs hurts my head as the light doesn't slowly come and go like older displays but it appears and disappears so quickly it's uncomfortable to me. I find the same with new traffic lights and LED brake lights (and Baz Luhrmann films). I can imagine subtitles flashing on and off to be a similar experience and this is without even mentioning the high nits.

[SonSon III]

Originally Posted by Geoff D

I've got a 2000-nit beast and things like titles, subtitles etc are not eye-meltingly bright. Not saying anyone else isn't getting that effect, lest I get a terse reply, but it's curious. Watching in a darkened room as well.

I think it varies from display technology in terms of severity. My old Samsung JS9000 LED with HDR wasn’t as “in your face” as my LG OLED with HDR.

[SonSon III]

Originally Posted by figrin_dan

I find that watching OLEDs hurts my head as the light doesn't slowly come and go like older displays but it appears and disappears so quickly it's uncomfortable to me. I find the same with new traffic lights and LED brake lights (and Baz Luhrmann films). I can imagine subtitles flashing on and off to be a similar experience and this is without even mentioning the high nits.

You have a very good point. How many people that are having problems are using an OLED as your display? The market is very saturated with OLED as a technology that isn’t going away anytime soon, so I still think subtitle peak whites should be adjusted accordingly to go along with all common types of consumer TVs.

[docmoejones]

hmmm, I actually do suffer from ocular migraine, on a "consistent" interval at once a year, but for the past 10+ years.
symptoms: localized throbbing pain in the head; blurry/flashy vision before developing into extreme light sensitivity to the point light coming through my closed eyelids would still hurt and I have to create as close to a pitch-black environment as possible to ease the eye pain; general nausea and fatigue for about a week after an attack.
I get that once a year for the past 10 years (at least), and I've been watching my LG OLED a couple of hours everyday 7 feet away from the panel at max OLED light level for the past 2 years has neither made my recurring attack more severe/frequent nor less.
I'm only describing my own case.

[Mobe1969]

Panasonic ought to be advertising this feature. No one else has it. The only other alternative is I guess ripping and adding your own...

[SonSon III]

I’m honestly starting to believe that this is probably isolated to OLED tech and HDR subtitles. Considering that Apple has been invested in OLED as well as offering gray subs leads me more to this conclusion. The problem is, like I said, definitely worse on my calibrated OLED vs my older “first gen HDR” Samsung LED.


Let’s just say that this is an issue to people prone to migraines, and own OLEDs that view HDR content but needs subs. It’s still a huge pool of consumers. The simplest solution is to have subs be either a shade of even light gray or a warm manilla folder color to compensate for the issue. I completely forgot how much worse my OLED subtitles are vs LED. The constant on/off brightness makes me feel terrible and I either have to suck it up (no thx), disable
Subs (not an option for me) or to really dial everything down to the point that it feels like I’m watching and old CRT tube that’s on it’s last legs.


I will ask once again, is this just OLED owners that are experiencing *extreme* discomfort with pure white subtitles on any HDR content, disc or otherwise?

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by SonSon III

As encoded on disc. Pure white is pure white, so the max amount that your particular display supports when displaying HDR content. If your display only can do 300 nits, it’s still the going to be the maximum, making for an unpleasant viewing experience.


I’m just hoping for a solution to a very real problem & oversight.

Yes, if the subtitles are encoded as 100% white, they're "encoded" or seen as 10,000 nits and will display at the level your display displays a 10,000 nit signal. Possibly can even trigger ABL fluctuations if the character talking is a motormouth.

Or you're watching the dark knight, it's dark as a cave in your HT man cave. Suddenly Batman says "I am the night! SWEAR TO ME!". You're blind, the crook is not.

[infiniteCR]

^Yeah, that last bit is certainly the case for me at times (especially in the Revenant). HDR is not very friendly to subtitles and grain so far.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by SonSon III

I will ask once again, is this just OLED owners that are experiencing *extreme* discomfort with pure white subtitles on any HDR content, disc or otherwise?

NO.

Pure white subtitles in HDR are nightmare on my Samsung KS7000 (European KS8000). Not only they're extremely bright and uncomfortable to read, but due to nature of that TV (edge lit) every time subtitles appear the backlight brightens huge part of image making it washed out, flat and ugly. It's already not so good TV for HDR, so I can't imagine not having control on subtitles.

Hail Panasonic!

[Mobe1969]

Originally Posted by infiniteCR

^Yeah, that last bit is certainly the case for me at times (especially in the Revenant). HDR is not very friendly to subtitles and grain so far.

Oh yeah, the Revenant. And to add insult to injury, I'm pretty sure the subtitles are only rendered at 1080p, no aliasing, so a bit chunky on the large screen.

Once again, I love the panasonic - I just wished it allowed me to default the luminance, not just have to do it each time.

[SonSon III]

May I ask which UHD Panasonic players offer the subtitle luminescence feature?

Also, Do you think it would be wise to attempt to get an Oppo UDP-203/205 with the hopes of the firmware update? They’ve always been good with actually listening to consumer feedback with regards to firmware.

I definitely hope that all companies, studios and player manufacturers alike can soon agree on a long term solution for this HDR Sub issue that does bother many.

[Mierzwiak]

Originally Posted by SonSon III

May I ask which UHD Panasonic players offer the subtitle luminescence feature?

All UHD ones? I have the cheapest UB300 and that option is there, it should be in all models.

[SonSon III]

Originally Posted by Mierzwiak

All UHD ones? I have the cheapest UB300 and that option is there, it should be in all models.

That’s really good to know. So all Panasonic players are the *only* way to go at this point for HDR content with Subtitles designed in mind for those the require them (the deaf or hearing impaired).

Let’s hope that Oppo rolls out some firmware soon and other companies fall in line.

This is good news for Panasonic, but the limitation should also be a huge concern for movie studios that are releasing these “pure white” discs.

Unfortunately it’s not limited to 4K Blu-Ray, when I watched the Olympics on DirecTV in 4K HDR I also noticed the pure white sub issue.

I’m glad that at least AppleTV has the issue sorted out via the use of gray subs on HDR content.

[Deciazulado]

Originally Posted by infiniteCR

^Yeah, that last bit is certainly the case for me at times (especially in the Revenant). HDR is not very friendly to subtitles and grain so far.

Imagine trying to evaluate HDR images on a a 300nit+ computer in a dimmed room, the average is like 10-15 nits suddenly you open a folder or a web page or the text editor and you have a full screen white hitting you at 300 nits, 30+ times brighter


For decades, when I can I change the default background of the app so something like 40-50% but some apps can only have the 100% defaullt. I wonder what will happen when more computing experience can be done in HDR mode monitors.

Anyway this subtitle issue would be mostly resolved if for example the OPPOs or other UHD players or the HDR disc itself had or could display subs (and OSDs!) at a simple 50%. Would be similar to 100% white subs in SDR (100 nits) or even better (50% in HDR is 92 nits)

[infiniteCR]

Yes, at some point they'll probably harken back to the SMPTE studies on what brightness is appropriate for dark/dim rooms and readjust. Regarding the Subs though, do these players adjust subs that are baked into the source too?


I really don't like looking at a monitor, really close up, in a dark room for longer than a few moments, so I feel for you. You'd think the people working in the industry on the monitor all day would get it...and they probably do, but there's likely a push to 'vivid' the living daylights () out of these things to appeal to the vivid masses.

[Deciazulado]

If it's baked is part of the image so it wouldn't be changed by a subtittle dimming feature. About close up monitoring, the sitting distance/monitor size is close enough that the monitors cover the field-of-view area controlling brightness, so the eyes are adapted to the image. It's mainly the sudden jump from for example Photoshop or Preview custom grey backgrounds, to the default 100% white of other apps .
At least our site has 90ish % blue (Blu-ray style) or grey (Classic style). And choice of white or black surround for screenshots when you click on them

[Rizor]

Yes, I like to watch movies with subtitles on regardless and they sometimes look so bright/shimmery that I've been forced to turn them off.

[mar3o]

Please tell me LG players will get this ability to dim the subtitles? I cannot afford a Panasonic UHD player, much as I'd like one.

[Mobe1969]

Originally Posted by mar3o

Please tell me LG players will get this ability to dim the subtitles? I cannot afford a Panasonic UHD player, much as I'd like one.

I doubt it.

Does anyone know what the lowest model Panasonic has that has it? I know the 900, 820, 9000 all have it. Not sure on the cheaper models. Problem is, you actually need one to check - the manual for the 820 and 900 don't show it.

[Cook]

Never had this problem and my Sony 930e is in a room with no natural light source and I keep the lights off a lot of the time. Subtitles arent big enough or on screen long enough to cause any discomfort. I think itd require a huge screen and a solid bright white screen to cause anything like a headache.

That being said it would be nice to be able to dim subtitles. My tv has dynamic lighting and the subtitles **** with that. Especially in really dark scenes.