Death in Venice (1971)

[Lutz]

You just posted a high resolution picture against a low resolution picture which is why they look different.

They both have the yellow problem.

[johnpaul2]

Originally Posted by Dr. Humbert

Ritrovated!

What a twist !


This is getting ridiculous. I wonder how long it'll take before the insiders within the industry realise what Ritrovata is doing isn't much better than the awful magenta-push that was applied on many HD masters 15 years ago.
All these movies, especially since restored in 4K in otherwise a good quality, are unlikely to be restored before who-knows-when, meaning they'll be stuck in these travesties for all that time.

Can you imagine being at a museum looking at paintings and say "I don't know who painted that but it sure looks like Paolo Ritrovata restored it ! Look at these yellows, these are so typical." ?

This is a cinematographic nightmare that has been going on for too long.

Note that Eclair and their typically blue restorations aren't much better.


And it's not a question of saying "I prefered when the gradings were flat or magenta". I don't. I never did. It's a question of wondering how come nobody realised all these restorations are now looking as if they were shot in the same place, by the same DP, with the same material. While it's pretty much impossible for someone in the general audience to state precisely how it should look, it's very easy to question if this is normal at all.

(as an aside though, Camera Obscura posted some technical speculations about Ritrovata's work, while James Steffen compared The Colour of Pomegranates' restoration with the Orwo reference copy and stated the grading needs to be redone).

[Keyser Soze.]

Looking forward to this one!

[James78]

Review:

http://www.criterionforum.org/DVD-re...ollection/2083

[yellowcakeuf6]

The screenshots posted in that review do look a wee bit (sorry) yellow in some areas, but nowhere near extreme as in the GBU remaster.
I'll be getting it, and will make the full determination then.

[jakdstew]

Originally Posted by yellowcakeuf6

The screenshots posted in that review do look a wee bit (sorry) yellow in some areas, but nowhere near extreme as in the GBU remaster.
I'll be getting it, and will make the full determination then.

I think people are making a little too much of the yellow problem. The blacks are much more of an issue based on those screenshots. I may hold off on this in the hope that Arrow will issue a revised version like they did with Tree of Wooden Clogs.

[MechaGodzilla]

Originally Posted by jakdstew

I think people are making a little too much of the yellow problem. The blacks are much more of an issue based on those screenshots. I may hold off on this in the hope that Arrow will issue a revised version like they did with Tree of Wooden Clogs.

Criterion are releasing this in both the US and UK, so I don't think Arrow will be able to do anything with it.

[Sheriff Hobbes]

Originally Posted by johnpaul2

I wonder how long it'll take before the insiders within the industry realise what Ritrovata is doing isn't much better than the awful magenta-push that was applied on many HD masters 15 years ago.

Are you talking about this company?
Are they the same guys who restored "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"? I remember this BD had an extremely yellow touch.

Originally Posted by James78

Review:
http://www.criterionforum.org/DVD-re...ollection/2083

Sitting at my PC monitor, the blacks look very black to me, not greyish at all.

[johnpaul2]

Originally Posted by jakdstew

I think people are making a little too much of the yellow problem. The blacks are much more of an issue based on those screenshots.

1. About the blacks : Gary's screenshots are likely to be off by 2-3 RGB values, not more. If the blacks are not pure blacks, this won't be enough to explain a bigger shift, like on Gary's captures 3, 11 or 14.
2. We're making so much of that because Death in Venice is about the 50th movie showing these biases, and the only constant between those movies is the lab who restored them. Sure, there are worse offenders, sure it's not as bad as a cataclysmically poorly graded movie, but it is likely, nevertheless, to be unfaithful to the original photography simply because this really looks like Ritrovata's signature.

Except no restorer should leave a signature on a restoration or a grading.

When you look at Gary's captures 3, 11 or 14, they show the same type of biases in low-lit areas than plenty of others restorations performed by Ritrovata, biases that are nowhere to be found in restorations performed by virtually any other restoration lab.

If I had to nuance, I would however say the white balance seems a tad better in highlights and carnations, while usually you'd also have creamy beige-y whites and pastel faces.

In any case though, most of these caps allow to guess instantly who performed the grading, while they shouldn't.

Originally Posted by Sheriff Hobbes

Are you talking about this company?
Are they the same guys who restored "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly"? I remember this BD had an extremely yellow touch.

Same lab, different intensity of the issue.
TGTBTU is very golden, but the issue isn't so much the overall golden aspect than the yellow bias other colors get. The skies for instance get because of this a greenish tint which makes it quite easy to guess which lab restored the movie.

Except you shouldn't be able to guess that, because a lab work should be transparent and leave no signature.

Originally Posted by Sheriff Hobbes

Sitting at my PC monitor, the blacks look very black to me, not greyish at all.

They're neither blacks nor grey, but slightly yellow. Other Ritrovata restorations showing this :
http://www.imagebam.com/image/d42d68737210543
http://www.imagebam.com/image/d80b34737210583
http://www.imagebam.com/image/e636b2737210703
http://www.imagebam.com/image/90e177737210733
http://www.imagebam.com/image/b4c858738180323

[jakdstew]

Originally Posted by johnpaul2

2. We're making so much of that because Death in Venice is about the 50th movie showing these biases, and the only constant between those movies is the lab who restored them. Sure, there are worse offenders, sure it's not as bad as a cataclysmically poorly graded movie, but it is likely, nevertheless, to be unfaithful to the original photography simply because this really looks like Ritrovata's signature.

Except no restorer should leave a signature on a restoration or a grading.

When you look at Gary's captures 3, 11 or 14, they show the same type of biases in low-lit areas than plenty of others restorations performed by Ritrovata, biases that are nowhere to be found in restorations performed by virtually any other restoration lab.

If I had to nuance, I would however say the white balance seems a tad better in highlights and carnations, while usually you'd also have creamy beige-y whites and pastel faces.

In any case though, most of these caps allow to guess instantly who performed the grading, while they shouldn't.

I'm not at all saying that Ritrovata does a great job on these restorations, although their black and white restorations seem to be fantastic for the most part. I just don't think the yellow problem is as bad on this release as on some of the others. Some have already cited The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly as an example. Another is their handling of Bertolucci's 1900, which can be viewed on dvdclassik.

[johnpaul2]

Yes, you're right about the intensity of the issue. However, what I meant is that it's understandable people would still point out Death in Venice because it seems to be fit the pattern of Ritrovata's "homogeneised" gradings, which is arguably a problem that direly need to be solved.

Their B&W restorations are indeed much better, though I'd argue that if you look close enough to them, they regularly show similar caracteristics that also allow to trace those back to Ritrovata without looking at the restoration credits. They often have elevated blacks with a flat aspect, and grain handling can also be telling (though it might be their scanner, not their restoration workflow, which generates that). It gives these movies a certain shiny silvery look that I don't think I see a lot elsewhere.

[fredoviola]

I agree, the blacks do seem to look quite muddy and lacking definition from those screen captures. Sometimes I think films from the 70s actually don't look that great. McCabe and Mrs. Miller looked pretty bad to me at first. Anyway, the warmth of the image here doesn't seem un-natural, and, it being a film focusing on decay and sickness, I would believe this was purposeful. My issue is, when will this be released?! I have had it preordered from Amazon for some time now, well over a month, and it hasn't shipped, nor does Amazon have an idea when they will be receiving the discs! I truly hope there will be a release of The Damned as well in a 4K restoration.

[Todd Tomorrow]

Originally Posted by fredoviola

I agree, the blacks do seem to look quite muddy and lacking definition from those screen captures. Sometimes I think films from the 70s actually don't look that great. McCabe and Mrs. Miller looked pretty bad to me at first. Anyway, the warmth of the image here doesn't seem un-natural, and, it being a film focusing on decay and sickness, I would believe this was purposeful. My issue is, when will this be released?! I have had it preordered from Amazon for some time now, well over a month, and it hasn't shipped, nor does Amazon have an idea when they will be receiving the discs! I truly hope there will be a release of The Damned as well in a 4K restoration.

The “pretty bad” look of McCabe and Mrs Miller was a deliberate artistic choice: https://filmmakermagazine.com/87150-.../#.XGtEgRrTWhA

[yellowcakeuf6]

Has anyone that ordered this at Amazon received it, or at least a shipping notice? It's now listed there as third party only sales.

Edit: Other retailers are shipping; looks like another Amazon problem.

[Dustin Putman]

Originally Posted by yellowcakeuf6

Has anyone that ordered this at Amazon received it, or at least a shipping notice? It's now listed there as third party only sales.

Edit: Other retailers are shipping; looks like another Amazon problem.

My Amazon order is also sitting at "Not Yet Shipped. Delivery estimate: We need a little more time to provide you with a good estimate."

This is unlike Amazon for new-release Criterions.

[jrcasey1960]

This is exactly my recent experience with Amazon and Criterion titles. I had to get LA VERITE from another e-tailer because of similar issues. Don't know what's going on with Amazon these days. Not as reliable as they have been in the past. Looks like I'm going a similar route with DEATH IN VENICE.

[dkelly26666]

I pre-ordered "Death in Venice" from Amazon months ago when the pre-order first went up.

The shipping estimate never updated. Then, it became 'Currently Unavailable' on the product page. Now, it is only available from third-party sellers.

So, I go on Best Buy's site yesterday, on President's Day, no less, ordered "Death in Venice" on there, and I received it just now. Ordered on a national holiday, and still got it overnight.

It's definitely an Amazon problem. Almost all of my current pre-orders have no shipping estimate. Man, they are going downhill. Not even sure I'll renew my Prime later.

That's what happens when something gets too big and arrogant.

[yellowcakeuf6]

I got a delivery date from Amazon of 2/27.


Edit: Looks like Best Buy is also showing delivery by 2/27. Supply issue from Criterion?

[dkelly26666]

Originally Posted by yellowcakeuf6

I got a delivery date from Amazon of 2/27.


Edit: Looks like Best Buy is also showing delivery by 2/27. Supply issue from Criterion?

I ordered it from Best Buy yesterday and received it today. I must have gotten my order in just in the nick of time...

[oliver_67]

The color just does not look right. I watched the film on the big screen in the 90s a few times. It does not look this way.