Blu Ray and Apple

[ObiTrentKenobi]

Originally Posted by Ofcrlunchbox14

i think apple is releasing their bd drive just in time for the star wars release on blu

[caliminius]

Originally Posted by ObiTrentKenobi

1) I'm posting on Apple threads, because I have a lot of experience with them... and am sharing the downfalls of Bluray playback on them, which is what this thread is about! Apple is a SOFTWARE COMPANY, just like Microsoft. Apple builds software, they don't make any hardware, they just DESIGN IT (aesthetics only)... so the "Experience" you're talking about, is solely built into the OS/software. The operating system can be just as good on "PC" hardware. All they have to do is open the kernel...

So, by your definition, Dell doesn't make computers either. In fact, by your definition I'm not sure if there is a single computer maker in the world. Apple decides what hardware goes into their computers, for better or worse depending on your opinion. They assemble the components into the finished computer.

I personally think much of the "experience" people mention with Macs is crap. For instances, Apple has an unfortunate tendency to put form ahead of function. A prime example is the iMac which uses more expensive laptop parts in spite of being a desktop computer.

OSX runs great on PC's already. using virtualization software, or "patching" the kernel. you just don't have full hardware support because of the OS's capabilites on it. If Apple decided to open up HARDWARE support, they'd still be as good of an OS, but just run on more affordable hardware.

the "experience" is because they have a select amount of hardware that is compatable with the OS, so support is simple and the hardware and software work streamlined. which is the best thing about it!

But as you said, if there is an Apple "experience," part of it is because of the limited hardware support that Apple provides. Which is of course a double-edged sword. It means that Apple can concentrate on making sure its OS works with the few configurations it has allowed. But it also means you don't have much choice in the hardware you can get.

The bad thing about it though, is cost! you pay twice as much for MAC hardware than PC (usually). have you tried upgrading your MAC's processor? no, you haven't because you can't. Have you tried getting a different graphics card for your MAC? no, probably not, because theirs like 4 that will actually work, and you have to special order them at a high cost. Ram? special order it, at a higher cost (usually)

That's both true and false. I'm sure one of the other Mac fans can point you to numerous articles that will show that if you configure a PC and Mac to the same specs, the price is pretty much a wash. But the truth is, you can't get any cheaper on a Mac but you can on a PC. With a PC, if you don't need Firewire, you don't have to get and can use that $20 to put in a better graphics card or bigger hard drive.

And no, unfortunately Apple doesn't sell many computers that can be upgraded. The cheapest upgradeable Mac is $2300. That's a pretty staggering price when you consider that a $400 PC can be upgraded. I'm stuck with the graphics card in my iMac until I buy a new computer and you're right that if I had a Mac Pro I wouldn't have many choices in the matter. As far as RAM in a Mac goes, there's nothing special about it. You can order memory from any source.

As a Mac owner, I neither love nor hate the machine. I hate the pathetic selection of games it has and even then, the game is always at full price, never dropping in price like the comparable PC game. I hate that I'm locked into the same hardware until I replace the entire system and that nothing will salvageable. And I hate the Mac zealots that seem to think Apple can do no wrong and Microsoft is akin to the anti-Christ. I like that my Mac seems more stable than Windows and that I don't have to be terribly worried about viruses. Will I buy another Mac? Probably not because I like to tinker with my computers, I want to be able to swap out parts and upgrade when I want. And Windows isn't nearly as terrible as is popular to make it sound.

[Sonny]

My MacBook should of come with BD drive when I bought it. Not that I would of used it... That's not the point though. Digital downloads are bull & I'll never "buy" my movies that way. Blu-ray only for me. I like digital copys that come with BDs cause I have an iPhone (which I'm typing this on) , & those are the only movies (30+) I have on my Mac.

[ObiTrentKenobi]

Originally Posted by caliminius

So, by your definition, Dell doesn't make computers either. In fact, by your definition I'm not sure if there is a single computer maker in the world. Apple decides what hardware goes into their computers, for better or worse depending on your opinion. They assemble the components into the finished computer.

I personally think much of the "experience" people mention with Macs is crap. For instances, Apple has an unfortunate tendency to put form ahead of function. A prime example is the iMac which uses more expensive laptop parts in spite of being a desktop computer.



But as you said, if there is an Apple "experience," part of it is because of the limited hardware support that Apple provides. Which is of course a double-edged sword. It means that Apple can concentrate on making sure its OS works with the few configurations it has allowed. But it also means you don't have much choice in the hardware you can get.



That's both true and false. I'm sure one of the other Mac fans can point you to numerous articles that will show that if you configure a PC and Mac to the same specs, the price is pretty much a wash. But the truth is, you can't get any cheaper on a Mac but you can on a PC. With a PC, if you don't need Firewire, you don't have to get and can use that $20 to put in a better graphics card or bigger hard drive.

And no, unfortunately Apple doesn't sell many computers that can be upgraded. The cheapest upgradeable Mac is $2300. That's a pretty staggering price when you consider that a $400 PC can be upgraded. I'm stuck with the graphics card in my iMac until I buy a new computer and you're right that if I had a Mac Pro I wouldn't have many choices in the matter. As far as RAM in a Mac goes, there's nothing special about it. You can order memory from any source.

As a Mac owner, I neither love nor hate the machine. I hate the pathetic selection of games it has and even then, the game is always at full price, never dropping in price like the comparable PC game. I hate that I'm locked into the same hardware until I replace the entire system and that nothing will salvageable. And I hate the Mac zealots that seem to think Apple can do no wrong and Microsoft is akin to the anti-Christ. I like that my Mac seems more stable than Windows and that I don't have to be terribly worried about viruses. Will I buy another Mac? Probably not because I like to tinker with my computers, I want to be able to swap out parts and upgrade when I want. And Windows isn't nearly as terrible as is popular to make it sound.

Agree

[Sirandar]

Blu-ray for the PC is still too flawed for Apple to support it. There are still too many "new release" disks that won't play out of the box and too much tweaking and firmware updating is required. Apple has a reputation for simplicity and reliability that may or may no be deserved, but when users pop their 30$ New Release Blu-ray into their Apple and it won't play .... they will blame Apple not the player developer or the Blu-Ray standard.

I hope Apple holds out as a carrot to get Blu-Ray to address these issues.

On the PC, some people have either paid for or pirated 3 Blu-ray players just so they can have some certainty that they can play New Release Blu-rays. I had to buy 2.

[dadkins]

Originally Posted by Sirandar

Blu-ray for the PC is still too flawed for Apple to support it. There are still too many "new release" disks that won't play out of the box and too much tweaking and firmware updating is required. Apple has a reputation for simplicity and reliability that may or may no be deserved, but when users pop their 30$ New Release Blu-ray into their Apple and it won't play .... they will blame Apple not the player developer or the Blu-Ray standard.

I hope Apple holds out as a carrot to get Blu-Ray to address these issues.

On the PC, some people have either paid for or pirated 3 Blu-ray players just so they can have some certainty that they can play New Release Blu-rays. I had to buy 2.

Flawed?
Mine work fine.
No firmware yet on this machine and it's 1 year old.

I have three players because I can, not because I need them.
ArcSoft integrates into Media Center, Plays BDs fine, and also plays anything else I throw at it.
Even my remote works with ArcSoft!

Insert disc.
Select player from the choices provided(or set one as default).
Watch Blu-ray on machine or connect HDMI and watch on HDTV.

Many(most?) of the issues we see with PCs and Blu-ray stems from the included OEM player software.
As soon as the same people get a full version - usually ArcSoft - the discs magically start playing.

I think the Apple reason is more of iTunes issue.
Not wanting to cut into their profit margin.

[brettallica]

Can't we all just get along? One thing I've never quite understood is why most Windows users are avid anti-Mac, and most Mac users are avid anti-Windows. It's just never made sense to me.

I use both Mac and Windows all day long, at work and at home. Both are very good operating operating systems, and both have a ton of flaws. I can honestly say that neither is unequivocally better than the other. If I was forced to use only Windows for my computer needs, then I would be severely handcuffed; the same goes for Mac. I need and expect to need to use both...and I like both!

It's like saying you can't love Lexus and BMW because they're just too different and you have to make a choice. It's not like you need to be on one side of the fence and can never cross over. They're just computers, man! They have no feelings. I'm pretty sure one won't get jealous if you like the other. I'm totally down for three-ways of this nature.

[Chevypower]

Come on Apple just three things I want here.

1. iCal subscriptions to sync with Mobileme
2. iPod Classic 240GB
3. Blu-ray support - burning on DVD Studio Pro and iDVD, with playback on Apple DVD Player. Some default settings on Compressor for Blu-ray authoring would be good too.

Still, I would rather use a Mac without a Blu-ray burner than a PC with one. And I have both, so I can honestly say that.

[JadedRaverLA]

As far as a how-to on playing Blu-rays on a Mac, I wrote one here... though sadly the thread devolved rather quickly into a Mac vs. PC flame war, and is now locked. Still, useful for some people I hope.

As for Apple incorporating Blu-ray playback into the OS: the biggest problem right now is that no one really knows what Apple plans to do. There is quite a bit of speculation, but without hard facts one way or the other on whether this may magically appear in Snow Leopard, no third party wants to invest in development not knowing if their product may immediately become worthless with SL's release. The fact that the beta's don't include BD playback support is "suggestive" at best, as Apple is an incredibly secretive company, and MANY things, including the slightly revamped interface, aren't in the developer builds and only exist within the confines of Cupertino.

Since the new unibody MB, MBPs, and LED ACD all support HDCP within OS X, creating a Blu-ray playback solution really wouldn't be that difficult on these latest machines. Once the MPs, Mac Minis, and iMacs get updated this Spring they also should support HDCP, making the market for external Blu-ray drives and playback solutions on the Mac platform fairly profitable.

If Apple doesn't add Blu-ray playback to the DVD Player with Snow Leopard, expect a third-party to develop a solution fairly quickly.

[ObiTrentKenobi]

Originally Posted by Sirandar

Blu-ray for the PC is still too flawed for Apple to support it. There are still too many "new release" disks that won't play out of the box and too much tweaking and firmware updating is required. Apple has a reputation for simplicity and reliability that may or may no be deserved, but when users pop their 30$ New Release Blu-ray into their Apple and it won't play .... they will blame Apple not the player developer or the Blu-Ray standard.

I hope Apple holds out as a carrot to get Blu-Ray to address these issues.

On the PC, some people have either paid for or pirated 3 Blu-ray players just so they can have some certainty that they can play New Release Blu-rays. I had to buy 2.

??????

PowerDVD has played every bluray in my collection... no updates necessary. I haven't even tried anything else, no need to. I never installed the OEM software to play blu's that came with my burner and just bought PowerDVD on sale for 79.99. (pirated and OEM software will have limitations and issues, no doubt).

[ObiTrentKenobi]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

As far as a how-to on playing Blu-rays on a Mac, I wrote one here...

Since the new unibody MB, MBPs, and LED ACD all support HDCP within OS X, creating a Blu-ray playback solution really wouldn't be that difficult on these latest machines. Once the MPs, Mac Minis, and iMacs get updated this Spring they also should support HDCP, making the market for external Blu-ray drives and playback solutions on the Mac platform fairly profitable.

If Apple doesn't add Blu-ray playback to the DVD Player with Snow Leopard, expect a third-party to develop a solution fairly quickly.

?????

Apple IS adding HDCP to their machines, but how is that helpful for bluray playback solutions for the MAC? HDCP on computers only adds frustrations and hindrances. It's basically copy protection. I understand the biz doesn't want their movies pirated, but it only creates availability issues. Maybe it's just their 1st step to adding bluray playback. But, why didn't they do that for DVD playback as well?? this sucks for MACS because now you can only export your video source to HDCP monitors/tv's that support it. Goodbye analog TV support for video output.

Also, maybe you don't understand how apple software works... Apple doesn't always ALLOW third party software adding DRIVER support to run on their machines legally. Apple has code/programming books about 4 inches thick of guidelines the developer must follow in order for Apple to "support" a third-party application to run on OSX. If Apple doesn't like it, their next update will kick it. The only exclusion is apps for the iphone, but this doesn't add driver support. Bluray playback on the MACs will be an Apple venture, not third party. Or, Apple won't care either way, and allow someone to create a blu-driver for the MACs....... but, if this were so, why hasn't anybody done so yet????? so many Apple users could really use this feature right? especially those in the movie industry. (who, by the way, trends are showing to move towards higher powered custom PC's)

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by ObiTrentKenobi

??????

PowerDVD has played every bluray in my collection... no updates necessary. I haven't even tried anything else, no need to. I never installed the OEM software to play blu's that came with my burner and just bought PowerDVD on sale for 79.99. (pirated and OEM software will have limitations and issues, no doubt).

I agree. PowerDVD 8 Ultra has been fantastic for Blu-ray playback for the last 8 months or so. I haven't had any issues.

But, DON'T buy now. PowerDVD 9 comes out next Monday.

[Minimejer05]

I use Interweb WinDVD to play my blu rays on my PC. Came free with my PC and it works for everything.

[SeanMF]

Being as I have my tv/blu-ray player in my room...I see no need for bluray on my imac. I'd just use the bluray player in my imac to watch blurays and that wouldn't happen as long as tv/blu-ray player and imac in the same room. I don't do any video editing or movie making so it wouldn't benefit me there. I do think to make blu-ray more mainstream having it on the macs would be beneficial as a natural progression of things. I don't plan on buying a pc over a mac in the future. Especially since bootcamp works well with windows. I would like a 17 macbook pro but I don't use portable computing much at all (I got a $500 toshiba laptop for christmas 08 and that works fine for when I travel) and can't justify the price of a macbook pro since I have an imac (not yet anyways).

[brettallica]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

As far as a how-to on playing Blu-rays on a Mac, I wrote one here... though sadly the thread devolved rather quickly into a Mac vs. PC flame war, and is now locked. Still, useful for some people I hope.

Yes, you did...and it was good. If you remember correctly I stepped in and said thanks for your contribution. That thread turned to garbage, which was unfortunate because it had a nice start; i.e. your write-up.

[caliminius]

Originally Posted by ObiTrentKenobi

?????

Apple IS adding HDCP to their machines, but how is that helpful for bluray playback solutions for the MAC? HDCP on computers only adds frustrations and hindrances. It's basically copy protection. I understand the biz doesn't want their movies pirated, but it only creates availability issues. Maybe it's just their 1st step to adding bluray playback. But, why didn't they do that for DVD playback as well?? this sucks for MACS because now you can only export your video source to HDCP monitors/tv's that support it. Goodbye analog TV support for video output.

Also, maybe you don't understand how apple software works... Apple doesn't always ALLOW third party software adding DRIVER support to run on their machines legally. Apple has code/programming books about 4 inches thick of guidelines the developer must follow in order for Apple to "support" a third-party application to run on OSX. If Apple doesn't like it, their next update will kick it. The only exclusion is apps for the iphone, but this doesn't add driver support. Bluray playback on the MACs will be an Apple venture, not third party. Or, Apple won't care either way, and allow someone to create a blu-driver for the MACs....... but, if this were so, why hasn't anybody done so yet????? so many Apple users could really use this feature right? especially those in the movie industry. (who, by the way, trends are showing to move towards higher powered custom PC's)

You don't know what you're talking about. Either when it comes to HDCP or Apple.

First, HDCP won't stop your computer from being able to use an analog monitor. The only thing it might stop is certain content, like Blu-Ray movies and legal HD downloads (not that you can actually get any legal HD downloads on a computer at this time anyhow). Chances are, though, the content will still play just in SD resolution. Apple screwed up their first implementation of HDCP so it was blocking content it shouldn't have. If you hook up your HD camcorder, the video will play just fine on an analog monitor.

Second, Apple doesn't control the creation or installation of drivers in OS X. A quick Google search brought up dozens of sites offering OS X drivers (and I only went through about 50 of the 85 million search results Google returned). Nor does it control the creation of applications for OS X. A future update of OS X will not maliciously kill an application, but like any OS update, it may do so unintentionally.

The major issue stopping a 3rd party Blu-Ray playback solution for the Mac has been the lack of HDCP support which is something 3rd party vendors COULD NOT correct. Please do everyone a favor and quit acting like you're an expert on Macs when you CLEARLY have no clue.

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by brettallica

Yes, you did...and it was good. If you remember correctly I stepped in and said thanks for your contribution. That thread turned to garbage, which was unfortunate because it had a nice start; i.e. your write-up.

Definitely appreciate it. Sad that it went so wildly off-track, though. Such is the nature of the interwebs I guess.

Originally Posted by caliminius

The major issue stopping a 3rd party Blu-Ray playback solution for the Mac has been the lack of HDCP support which is something 3rd party vendors COULD NOT correct. Please do everyone a favor and quit acting like you're an expert on Macs when you CLEARLY have no clue.

Indeed. Just to add to that (in case it wasn't clear), in order to obtain the licenses necessary to enable Blu-ray playback (AACS, etc) on a PC, non-HDCP-compliant digital outputs MUST be disabled. Since all of Apple's machines had digital outputs that were not HDCP-compliant (within OS X), and all of their monitors had digital-only inputs that were also not HDCP-compliant, there was essentially no reason for any company to even consider making a Blu-ray playback solution within OS X -- as it could only have worked over analog connections to either internal laptop screens or third party monitors with VGA inputs. Starting with the latest notebooks and the LED LCD screen, that has finally been corrected. Once the desktops are upgraded as well, even if Apple doesn't provide playback support directly within the OS, a large enough userbase will exist for a third party software company to come in and develop the necessary playback software.

There are other things coming in Snow Leopard, such as OpenCL, that will make it even easier (and less CPU intensive) to create playback software. But the lack of HDCP on Apple's machines was really THE reason every company that considered an OS X Blu-ray player quickly gave up on the idea.

[prerich]

Originally Posted by Sirandar

Blu-ray for the PC is still too flawed for Apple to support it. There are still too many "new release" disks that won't play out of the box and too much tweaking and firmware updating is required. Apple has a reputation for simplicity and reliability that may or may no be deserved, but when users pop their 30$ New Release Blu-ray into their Apple and it won't play .... they will blame Apple not the player developer or the Blu-Ray standard.

I hope Apple holds out as a carrot to get Blu-Ray to address these issues.

On the PC, some people have either paid for or pirated 3 Blu-ray players just so they can have some certainty that they can play New Release Blu-rays. I had to buy 2.

I bought 2 but one was mainly for upconversion of DVD's (WINDVD 9). I play all of my BD's strictly in TMT. No problems

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by Todd_Bridges1

You would think with Jobs being the main dude at Disney and Pixar he would push for the BD.

He is not the main dude at either really. With Disney, he is on the board of Directors and that is about it. I am sure some people at Disney wish this were not true.

John Lassiter really runs Pixar from a creative perspective, Ed Cutmall runs the studio, and Jim Morris runs day to day operations. Jobs is not really around either studio much.

[djluis2k6]

Originally Posted by Galley

Apple has no plans at the moment for either BD drives or BD movie playback.

So an Apple can't support a BD drive at all, not even an external drive? I'm considering purchasing the new 17" MacBook Pro, which supports 1080p.