Will iTunes Look Bad On My TV?

[stonesfan129]

Hello, purchased a new TV for Christmas this year. Samsung 65" TU7000. I probably could have done better, but it's what I could afford. I pretty much buy Blu-ray. I have quite a few movies I've scanned the DVD codes and upgraded to Vudu HDX copies (which quite a few of ported over into iTunes). I watch these on a Panasonic 42" 1080p plasma. I'm running out of shelf space and want to switch to digital, despite all of the ownership issues it may present. On my current TV, the Vudu and iTunes copies look very nice to me.

My question is this - will iTunes 4K or HD look horrible on my new TV sitting about 10 feet away? I'm not going for the best picture, just acceptable. Anyone have a similar TV and happy with iTunes? I am not using an ATV, I am using a Roku Ultra running the ATV app. Internet speed is 300Mbps down and I have a pretty high quality wireless router, maybe about 12 feet or so away from my Roku. So internet speeds shouldn't be an issue. Thanks for any advice/experiences you can give.

[geiger167]

Should look great, it's a 4k TV with HDR and the roku ultra outputs 4k and HDR and works with apple tv app, I have a Hisense Roku tv in a bedroom and had no issues with the apple tv app

[kmaples]

I’m doing same. Unloading physical collection and moving digital. Bought an AppleTV not too long ago and have Rocky 4K devices connected to my 4K TVs that support Dolby vision and I can’t tell hardly any difference between my discs and digital copies. I do have my AppleTV device hardwired via Ethernet with same internet speeds as you, so not sure how much of a difference that would make via going wireless. I’ve done a few comparisons between some my 4K discs and streaming their 4K counterparts in iTunes and in most instances I can’t see much difference and in the instances where I can see a difference it’s very minimal.

I’ve just started the digital transition where it’s the source I’m relying on, but I’ve been redeeming digital copies for almost 12 years. To this day I haven’t lost a single title digitally. Some have changed companies and no longer show up as though I own them when searching iTunes, but if I go to my library and scroll to the title it shows I own it and can play it back just fine. A couple examples include Trainspotting and Inglrious Basterds.

[The Watcher 69]

I've read professional reviews that say the iTunes 4K versions are virtually imperceptible from the physical UHD releases.

[UHDuffer]

Originally Posted by The Watcher 69

I've read professional reviews that say the iTunes 4K versions are virtually imperceptible from the physical UHD releases.

The metrics are somewhat murky in this field.

If you have a TV though that performs well in Movie related parameters:
Screen Size, Dynamic Range, Frame Rates, Motion Interpolation, Near Black Handling etc; there is a lot to admire for all but the most hardened Pixel Peepers. (24 fps Apple TV omission not withstanding)
Audio though, as you are probably aware; is another story.

One thing that interests me though is the purported successor to the 4K unit due out next year.

If it has support for the H.266 format relatively quickly in its life span, we might see considerable improvements to audio soon too.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by UHDuffer

If it has support for the H.266 format relatively quickly in its life span, we might see considerable improvements to audio soon too.

What does the video codec have to do with audio quality?

I would disagree with the notion that iTunes audio is lacking. The Atmos tracks sound excellent. It would be good if they could upgrade the bitrate of non-Atmos tracks though (640kbps DD+ would be enough, currently they use 384 kbps for 5.1 tracks which is DVD quality).

[Cinematt]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

What does the video codec have to do with audio quality?

My guess would be keeping the overall stream size low enough to boost the audio rate without upping the minimum broadband speed recommendations. I've had times when my internet is struggling and the stream switches to HD from 4K and it's really jarring so I'd wager Apple put a higher premium on consistency of experience than highest quality.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by Cinematt

My guess would be keeping the overall stream size low enough to boost the audio rate without upping the minimum broadband speed recommendations. I've had times when my internet is struggling and the stream switches to HD from 4K and it's really jarring so I'd wager Apple put a higher premium on consistency of experience than highest quality.

Well, audio streams are small compared to the video data. Only lossless audio is problematic for streaming due to the variable bitrate. But high bitrate CBR tracks shouldn't be a problem for today's streams (and sound virtually identical).

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

What does the video codec have to do with audio quality?

I would disagree with the notion that iTunes audio is lacking. The Atmos tracks sound excellent. It would be good if they could upgrade the bitrate of non-Atmos tracks though (640kbps DD+ would be enough, currently they use 384 kbps for 5.1 tracks which is DVD quality).

384 Kpbs on iTunes is DD+ eAc3. It's a compressed version of lossy DD+ @ 640 Kbps.

Some films like Arrival and Revenant are 640 Kbps DD+. Vast majority are either Atmos @768 Kbps or DD eAc3 at 384 Kbps.

My guess on why the audio bit rates are in this range is due to ARC limitation of 1 Mbps for audio.

Once eARC becomes a norm, these Studios and streamers can start upping the audio bit rates but doubt if they would do that as I expect things to go in the opposite direction like what Netflix are planning to do.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by lgans316

My guess on why the audio bit rates are in this range is due to ARC limitation of 1 Mbps for audio.

The vast majority of ARC devices can only process 2-channel PCM and 5.1-channel AC3, so the currently used E-AC3 streams already don't work via ARC in most cases. But the ATV can transcode the audio output to AC3 in real time, so this shouldn't be a problem anyway.

[UHDuffer]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

What does the video codec have to do with audio quality?

I would disagree with the notion that iTunes audio is lacking. The Atmos tracks sound excellent. It would be good if they could upgrade the bitrate of non-Atmos tracks though (640kbps DD+ would be enough, currently they use 384 kbps for 5.1 tracks which is DVD quality).

Originally Posted by Cinematt

My guess would be keeping the overall stream size low enough to boost the audio rate without upping the minimum broadband speed recommendations. I've had times when my internet is struggling and the stream switches to HD from 4K and it's really jarring so I'd wager Apple put a higher premium on consistency of experience than highest quality.

It’s pretty much this. With the new hardware, streaming efficiency - would be great to see some QOL improvements too. Imagine being able to switch seamlessly between different Audio tracks such as for Anime with multi-language support, or commentaries for your fave. films without having to exit to the main menu or view through an inferior stream. Would think that would be very much possible, similar to how the app. ‘Infuse’ operates now.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by UHDuffer

Imagine being able to switch seamlessly between different Audio tracks such as for Anime with multi-language support, or commentaries for your fave. films without having to exit to the main menu or view through an inferior stream. Would think that would be very much possible, similar to how the app. ‘Infuse’ operates now.

Quite a few iTunes movies already have multiple audio tracks (e.g. the recent release "Let Him Go" has English, Spanish and French audio).

[The Watcher 69]

Originally Posted by UHDuffer

If it has support for the H.266 format relatively quickly in its life span, we might see considerable improvements to audio soon too.

This leads me to a thread I've been meaning to start on iTunes 8K!

[UHDuffer]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

Quite a few iTunes movies already have multiple audio tracks (e.g. the recent release "Let Him Go" has English, Spanish and French audio).

Cool, wasn't aware that iTunes offered branching audio mid-stream. Thought it all had to be accessed through the menu. This is definitely confirmed?

That would be an interesting test Igans316 if you have the time...
If there is a drop in quality for example of a 5.1 stream that has stereo audio branching to one that does not.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by UHDuffer

Cool, wasn't aware that iTunes offered branching audio mid-stream. Thought it all had to be accessed through the menu. This is definitely confirmed?

You can switch audio languages during playback using the pulldown menu on the ATV, if that's what you mean by "branching".

[jwsg]

This isn't branching - that's what disc playback can achieve as it has access to multiple video and audio components to mix and match whereas a stream source is linear with multiple audio tracks.

The audio is weak with streaming compared with lossless tracks on disc especially the non-Atmos films which are DVD quality on Itunes. DD+ allows up to 6Mb/s but nothing like this is ever used to be able to judge how much closer it would be to lossless.

Multiple encodes are uploaded at different video qualities to allow for line conditions and the user's equipment so they could add a higher bit-rate audio with the higher bit-rate video encodes but all the streaming services give audio a very low priority.

After being 100% digital for 4K I'm getting a few 4K discs because of the audio as well as film specific issues like aspect ratio not switching etc.

[lgans316]

Originally Posted by jwsg

This isn't branching - that's what disc playback can achieve as it has access to multiple video and audio components to mix and match whereas a stream source is linear with multiple audio tracks.

The audio is weak with streaming compared with lossless tracks on disc especially the non-Atmos films which are DVD quality on Itunes. DD+ allows up to 6Mb/s but nothing like this is ever used to be able to judge how much closer it would be to lossless.

Multiple encodes are uploaded at different video qualities to allow for line conditions and the user's equipment so they could add a higher bit-rate audio with the higher bit-rate video encodes but all the streaming services give audio a very low priority.

After being 100% digital for 4K I'm getting a few 4K discs because of the audio as well as film specific issues like aspect ratio not switching etc.

Audio being weak depends upon the film.

Some films sounds almost identical to the disc (law of diminishing returns).

Some are awful (e.g. John Wick 3 - sounds audibly compressed).

Remember, we have all raved DVD audio back in those days. What's streaming is offering now is way better than that but sadly audio has never been prioritised and we can only hope one day these providers start improving the audio bit rates.

[Fiffy]

Originally Posted by jwsg

The audio is weak with streaming compared with lossless tracks on disc especially the non-Atmos films which are DVD quality on Itunes. DD+ allows up to 6Mb/s but nothing like this is ever used to be able to judge how much closer it would be to lossless.

A lot of this is confirmation bias. After doing a number of blind tests, I'm convinced that the vast majority of people can't hear a difference in most movies when you get to 640 kbps or higher, as long as they don't know a priori what they are listening to. Once you get to >1 Mbps (e.g. the old 1.5 Mbps DD+ tracks that were commonly used on HD-DVD) it's virtually identical to lossless, but without the drawback of having to deal with variable bitrates.

[jwsg]

What youve said sounds more like confirmation bias!

The streaming companies are able to get away with DVD quality audio as many people are using TV speakers or soundbars even with 4K TVs, but even adding the word 'Atmos' to a lossy stream cant change the fact that lossless tracks on disc are superior.

[onyx527]

Originally Posted by Fiffy

A lot of this is confirmation bias. After doing a number of blind tests, I'm convinced that the vast majority of people can't hear a difference in most movies when you get to 640 kbps or higher, as long as they don't know a priori what they are listening to. Once you get to >1 Mbps (e.g. the old 1.5 Mbps DD+ tracks that were commonly used on HD-DVD) it's virtually identical to lossless, but without the drawback of having to deal with variable bitrates.

I think you’re correct which is why audio has never been given full attention to try and get as close to lossless as possible. What they’ve got is “good enough” and most consumers can’t tell the difference.

You get to Home Theater enthusiasts like us and we can tell the difference immediately without even comparing a stream to a disc. But we’re a small segment. However that said with this new world we’re entering, home viewing is seeing a huge spike so maybe they’ll start giving audio its due

In the looks department iTunes is almost the same as disc, it’s just audio that is preventing me from moving over fully to digital