4K UHD Blu-ray Playback on PC Desktop is officially dead in 2021?

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by LexInHD

Pluton lands in mid/late 2022, as part of Intel's newest offerings, and will handle the security keys for all protected media in Windows 11. It is already used for UHD-BD playback in consoles. It is backwards compatible with currently used security hardware and software implementations, so there should be no problem with either Cyberlink or Corel media players. It will eventually be integrated into mobile/embedded SOCs, which will allow for things like connecting a UHD-BD drive to a Smart TV and using the TV's software and hardware to play a disc, which is something already being done with the format's predecessors.

But will Pluton get the attention of CyberLink after what they said in their statement? What about the new M1 Max MacBook Pro which has a 1600nit near-UHD miniLED display and built-in surround sound with Dolby Atmos decoding (not sure about DTS:X)? That thing's gonna outsell similarly-priced non-Apple laptops because of its absolutely crazy performance!!! Where did you find out that the Xbox consoles use Pluton for UHD Blu-ray playback?

Also, a display itself can only access certain types of files stored on discs in external drives when set to "AV" mode. It cannot play the BDMV or DVD-Video portion, even if it is personal content with no copy protection. If you could simply hook up a computer UHD Blu-ray drive to a display and play UHD Blu-ray discs, then there would be no reason for Panasonic to keep making the DP-UB9000 as these full-size players would become obsolete.

[usually_quiet]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

But will Pluton get the attention of CyberLink after what they said in their statement?

Impossible to predict.

Originally Posted by BijouMan

What about the new M1 Max MacBook Pro which has a 1600nit near-UHD miniLED display and built-in surround sound with Dolby Atmos decoding (not sure about DTS:X)? That thing's gonna outsell similarly-priced non-Apple laptops because of its absolutely crazy performance!!!

No. There is no indication that new Macs will include Pluton processors. If theoretically, the BDA approved only those CPUs with Pluton processors for UHD Blu-ray playback, why would a rational person think for one minute the new Macs would qualify for UHD playback without Pluton?

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Also, a display itself can only access certain types of files stored on discs in external drives when set to "AV" mode. It cannot play the BDMV or DVD-Video portion, even if it is personal content with no copy protection. If you could simply hook up a computer UHD Blu-ray drive to a display and play UHD Blu-ray discs, then there would be no reason for Panasonic to keep making the DP-UB9000 as these full-size players would become obsolete.

Except for the premium models, UHD Blu-ray players may already be on their way to being discontinued. Samsung isn't making UHD Blu-ray players any longer.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by usually_quiet

Impossible to predict.


No. There is no indication that new Macs will include Pluton processors. If theoretically, the BDA approved only those CPUs with Pluton processors for UHD Blu-ray playback, why would a rational person think for one minute the new Macs would qualify for UHD playback without Pluton?


Except for the premium models, UHD Blu-ray players may already be on their way to being discontinued. Samsung isn't making UHD Blu-ray players any longer.

Apple Silicon inherently has hardware-based security features including a Secure Enclave that the BDA could easily approve of, and since Apple machines make up a very large part of the computing industry, these need to get attention as well. Pluton is basically Microsoft's version of Apple's security hardware, designed for processors outside the Apple ecosystem.

[usually_quiet]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Apple Silicon inherently has hardware-based security features including a Secure Enclave that the BDA could easily approve of, and since Apple machines make up a very large part of the computing industry, these need to get attention as well. Pluton is basically Microsoft's version of Apple's security hardware, designed for processors outside the Apple ecosystem.

You keep using the same arguments, and they are arguments that are demonstrably untrue.

Apple has only 16% of the market. The vast majority of computer owners, including Apple owners, prefer watching streaming video or video files to playing shiny plastic discs with their computers. The percentage of those optical disc fans who want to play their UHD Blu-ray discs with a computer is tiny.

Pluton is not the same as Apple's solution and supporting it would require additional programming. Apple would also need to provide assistance with the development of any third-party software using their proprietary security technology. I doubt that Apple will be interested since there is nothing in it for them. Apple makes money from those watching iTunes streaming video but no money from those playing optical media. ...and Apple doesn't seem to be losing customers as a result of not supporting UHD Blu-ray. You are fanatical about wanting UHD Blu-ray playback but you aren't leaving them, are you?

[dinosauriac]

I was actually thinking about going back to Intel with my next PC build, with the stupid-ass hardware encryption for 4K blu rays being one of the reasons. I got a great little external 4K disc player and was pretty steamed to find I couldn't play UHD discs without being on Intel hardware. If I'm reading right they don't even support it anymore?

Having to use PowerDVD is bad enough, let alone being locked into one type of CPU brand. Think I might not bother now.

[apollo828]

Yes, it has to be Intel, and it can't be the latest CPU. Intel has dropped support for SGX, the tech that had been approved for UHD-BD playback. So, you're going to have to use (slightly) outdated CPUs and motherboards that feature an insecure "secure" technology that wrecks your computer's performance due to all the ad-hoc patches Intel has added to try to keep SGX at least minimally secure.

In other words, unless you rip your discs, UHD-BD playback on PCs is dead, and it's almost certainly not coming back, despite what one...special person in this thread insists could happen one day.

[Nitroboy]

Originally Posted by dinosauriac

I was actually thinking about going back to Intel with my next PC build, with the stupid-ass hardware encryption for 4K blu rays being one of the reasons. I got a great little external 4K disc player and was pretty steamed to find I couldn't play UHD discs without being on Intel hardware. If I'm reading right they don't even support it anymore?

Having to use PowerDVD is bad enough, let alone being locked into one type of CPU brand. Think I might not bother now.

MakeMKV is the solution.

[LexInHD]

Originally Posted by dinosauriac

I was actually thinking about going back to Intel with my next PC build, with the stupid-ass hardware encryption for 4K blu rays being one of the reasons. I got a great little external 4K disc player and was pretty steamed to find I couldn't play UHD discs without being on Intel hardware. If I'm reading right they don't even support it anymore?

Having to use PowerDVD is bad enough, let alone being locked into one type of CPU brand. Think I might not bother now.

Intel didn't actually drop SGX. They have an updated version used in new CPUs, but it's not widely available at this time and Intel considers the original version to be no longer supported. In the next few years, Intel will incorporate the Pluton security hardware into it's CPUs, which is approved by the BDA for UHD-BD security and used in consoles.

[apollo828]

The problem with Pluton is that, AFAIK, there's no guarantee UHD-BD support will be approved for general purpose PCs. The XBox approval may be contingent on certain system "boundaries" that won't apply on PCs. Even if that doesn't apply or can be worked around, somebody still has to apply for approval, and somebody has to approve it. I don't know the general timeframe offhand but the impression I get is that Pluton won't be available to the general public for at least another year. Factor in the time needed to refactor the PowerDVD codebase and the need to wait for enough of a userbase to make support viable, and I'm guessing it'll be at least late-2023 before any sort of new PC solution is available.

[BijouMan]

I can't believe it, but this issue has now actually made the press. Many technology news sites reported on this in the past week.

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/new...x-deprecation/

[slimjean]

Originally Posted by Nitroboy

MakeMKV is the solution.

Exactly. Crack it then burn it with software. Play it back somewhere else. Not seeing the big deal.
I play 4K's with 4K players. Computers are for editing.

Originally Posted by usually_quiet

Except for the premium models, UHD Blu-ray players may already be on their way to being discontinued. Samsung isn't making UHD Blu-ray players any longer.

Who cares about Samsung??

Sony makes players and that is all that matters. Panasonic and LG aren't going away either.

Heck I don't even care about Samsung TV. They are like the Sega Saturn of a Playstation/Nintendo world.

[stonesfan129]

Why don't they just remove the DRM from the discs? You paid for the copy, you should be able to use it as you see fit. But "omg people might share it or upload it to pirate sites..." Guess what? That's already happening regardless of the DRM. People who legit pay for the content are not likely to go send it out to other people. Either that or allow non-DRM-protected downloads when you redeem a digital copy in iTunes the way they do with music? At least then I can go watch it on other things.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by stonesfan129

Why don't they just remove the DRM from the discs? You paid for the copy, you should be able to use it as you see fit. But "omg people might share it or upload it to pirate sites..." Guess what? That's already happening regardless of the DRM. People who legit pay for the content are not likely to go send it out to other people. Either that or allow non-DRM-protected downloads when you redeem a digital copy in iTunes the way they do with music? At least then I can go watch it on other things.

Because if there were no protections, then everyone would be breaking the law, even just your average Joe. It would no longer require any hacking to copy a disc, and everyone would do it. As we can see, these protections are not perfect and cannot stop all illegal activity, but they do prevent most. If the movie studios could no longer profit if everyone is copying their discs and giving them to their family and friends, then there would be no more movies.

Look what happened with the CD. CD piracy became a huge problem for the industry in the 1990s thanks to the affordability of the CD-R and burners, and that is one of the reasons the Super Audio CD and DVD-Audio were developed, in addition to allowing higher fidelity and more channels. But, people still kept on buying and copying CDs anyway, so it was too late and developing a new format didn't combat this at all. At least it was very difficult to steal the high-fidelity surround recordings, but the average person didn't care about the quality or number of channels.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

I can't believe it, but this issue has now actually made the press. Many technology news sites reported on this in the past week.

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/new...x-deprecation/

While playing standard Blu-ray discs is possible from any Windows PC in the last 16 years. Since Intel no longer supports SGX security technology in their latest CPU’s, this means that 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc playback is no longer possible for all new PC’s using Windows 10 and Windows 11. Only around 1% of the PC’s in the world use Intel’s SGX technology.

It is up to the Blu-ray Disc Association to come out with a hardware or software solution that allows 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc playback from a Windows PC. If the BDA does not want to do a secure software solution that works with all Windows 10 and 11 PC’s, then there is another option. The Blu-ray Disc Association should authorize the use of a hardware solution that uses the TPM 2.0 security chip built into the latest CPU’s by AMD and Intel. With a software update to PowerDVD Ultra and other Blu-ray software this would allow 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc playback from all Windows 11 PC’s and beyond. If the BDA authorizes the use of TPM 2.0 security instead of SGX. Then any AMD or Intel PC that is capable of running Windows 11 will playback native 4K Blu-ray discs as long as one has a 4K BD-ROM drive attached. I prefer a 4K Blu-ray software solution that works with all existing Windows 10 PC’s. However if a hardware solution for security is a must have then all PC’s that run Windows 11 with the required TPM 2.0 chip would be a solution (It would be another reason to upgrade the PC to one that runs Windows 11 and beyond).

4K Blu-ray has greater security when compared to the weak encryption on DVD. 4K Blu-ray and Blu-ray are much harder to rip to ones hard drive since they use renewable security with the encryption keys being able to be changed (which requires a Blu-ray player firmware update with the new keys to play the newest releases). I know there are some in the industry that are suggesting that all 4K Blu-ray and standard Blu-ray BD-ROM drives for computers should go out of production as a way to get rid of piracy. The logic is that if there are no optical drives for computers, then piracy becomes impossible since people can no longer rip movies to their hard drive. However the problem with that logic is that there are already several millions of consumers that own optical drives in their computer. The real piracy problem with ripping is occurring on the DVD format with its weak 25 year old encryption system that cannot be changed. If the Hollywood studios are worried about piracy, they should then stop releasing movies on the DVD format. Then consumers will have 4K Blu-ray and 4K streaming for choices to watch movies. At least with 4K Blu-ray it becomes 100% secure for new releases that use the latest encryption keys.

[MrMahn]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Because if there were no protections, then everyone would be breaking the law, even just your average Joe. It would no longer require any hacking to copy a disc, and everyone would do it. As we can see, these protections are not perfect and cannot stop all illegal activity, but they do prevent most. If the movie studios could no longer profit if everyone is copying their discs and giving them to their family and friends, then there would be no more movies.

Look what happened with the CD. CD piracy became a huge problem for the industry in the 1990s thanks to the affordability of the CD-R and burners, and that is one of the reasons the Super Audio CD and DVD-Audio were developed, in addition to allowing higher fidelity and more channels. But, people still kept on buying and copying CDs anyway, so it was too late and developing a new format didn't combat this at all. At least it was very difficult to steal the high-fidelity surround recordings, but the average person didn't care about the quality or number of channels.

You severely underestimate how ridiculously easy it is to rip a Blu-ray or download a pirated copy. The only thing DRM does is annoy legitimate customers, perhaps even pushing them to piracy ironically enough.

[MrMahn]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

At least with 4K Blu-ray it becomes 100% secure for new releases that use the latest encryption keys.

4K Blu-ray is not secure in the slightest anymore. Remux rips are up on sites within a day of release.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by MrMahn

4K Blu-ray is not secure in the slightest anymore. Remux rips are up on sites within a day of release.

Then someone must be breaking the new encryption keys. There is no blank 4K discs on the market, so any piracy is happening in the cloud with solid state drives and hard drives. One can upload or download a 100GB 4K image within 1 minute with a 10,000Mbps Internet connection. Those that have a slower 1,000Mbps connection it takes around 10 minutes to upload or download the movie.

If a 8K optical disc format is launched around the year 2026 then hopefully the industry will use unbreakable 512 bit or higher military level encryption for Hollywood movies. Then piracy will no longer exist with military level encryption on 8K optical discs.

[Warm Gun]

People still believe the successor to 4K discs will be embraced? Considering where we are at with disc sales and streaming? Seems like the end of the road to me.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by MrMahn

You severely underestimate how ridiculously easy it is to rip a Blu-ray or download a pirated copy. The only thing DRM does is annoy legitimate customers, perhaps even pushing them to piracy ironically enough.

Protections don’t harm legitimate consumers at all. You put the disc in the player and it just works. Besides, the disc is more reliable than a hard disk copy anyway (hard drives have a chance of failure). I have never had a pressed disc go bad on me, not even 80s CDs.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

While playing standard Blu-ray discs is possible from any Windows PC in the last 16 years. Since Intel no longer supports SGX security technology in their latest CPU’s, this means that 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc playback is no longer possible for all new PC’s using Windows 10 and Windows 11. Only around 1% of the PC’s in the world use Intel’s SGX technology.

It is up to the Blu-ray Disc Association to come out with a hardware or software solution that allows 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc playback from a Windows PC. If the BDA does not want to do a secure software solution that works with all Windows 10 and 11 PC’s, then there is another option. The Blu-ray Disc Association should authorize the use of a hardware solution that uses the TPM 2.0 security chip built into the latest CPU’s by AMD and Intel. With a software update to PowerDVD Ultra and other Blu-ray software this would allow 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc playback from all Windows 11 PC’s and beyond. If the BDA authorizes the use of TPM 2.0 security instead of SGX. Then any AMD or Intel PC that is capable of running Windows 11 will playback native 4K Blu-ray discs as long as one has a 4K BD-ROM drive attached. I prefer a 4K Blu-ray software solution that works with all existing Windows 10 PC’s. However if a hardware solution for security is a must have then all PC’s that run Windows 11 with the required TPM 2.0 chip would be a solution (It would be another reason to upgrade the PC to one that runs Windows 11 and beyond).

4K Blu-ray has greater security when compared to the weak encryption on DVD. 4K Blu-ray and Blu-ray are much harder to rip to ones hard drive since they use renewable security with the encryption keys being able to be changed (which requires a Blu-ray player firmware update with the new keys to play the newest releases). I know there are some in the industry that are suggesting that all 4K Blu-ray and standard Blu-ray BD-ROM drives for computers should go out of production as a way to get rid of piracy. The logic is that if there are no optical drives for computers, then piracy becomes impossible since people can no longer rip movies to their hard drive. However the problem with that logic is that there are already several millions of consumers that own optical drives in their computer. The real piracy problem with ripping is occurring on the DVD format with its weak 25 year old encryption system that cannot be changed. If the Hollywood studios are worried about piracy, they should then stop releasing movies on the DVD format. Then consumers will have 4K Blu-ray and 4K streaming for choices to watch movies. At least with 4K Blu-ray it becomes 100% secure for new releases that use the latest encryption keys.

TPM has been around since Windows 10. It is required to use BitLocker. TPM doesn’t require Windows 11.