How well does the vinyl hold up?

[zicmubleu]

I know you guys have very high end TT, arms and cartridges, etc.

[Show spoiler]please forgive the incorrect term usage

but every time you play a record it physically wears the medium, unless you have one of those laser pick up systems I guess. How many times can you play your album before you notice any degradation? I know you thoroughly enjoy that analog pureness of vinyl but can you record it using some sort of FLAC program and preserve the original sound closely, on your HTPC on that first play out of the sleeve?

[dobyblue]

With a good stylus properly maintained and a correct vinyl set-up...I believe the number of times in my experience you can play a record before you notice any sonic degradation is limitless.

[zicmubleu]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

With a good stylus properly maintained and a correct vinyl set-up...I believe the number of times in my experience you can play a record before you notice any sonic degradation is limitless.

Wow, I wouldn't have guessed that at all. You produce a lot of charts/graphs of CD recordings comparing 44, 48, 96 and SACD, have you ever done that for any of your records? Or do you ever capture the vinyl to a PC file? I really would think you specifically create your own portable media files but I can see where you would have little or no need to copy the same vinyl twice.

Mechanically I don't understand how the wear by the needle is avoided, I realize using lower tracking weight and great TT arms help; but isn't the vinyl groove still pushing the needle around, dragging the arm across the record, etc.?

Thanks for your feedback, still won't convince me to spend thousands on a turntable setup but it does help me understand the addiction.

[CasualKiller]

Using a lower tracking force can damage your vinyl/stylus just as much as too much force. Always use the manufacturers recommended settings.

I have a few 24/96 Zeppelin albums ripped from 200g vinyl and although it sounds a million times better than a cd or mp3 it just isn't as good as the real thing.

And that's not taking into account each FLAC album is almost 2 gigs....

[Johnny Vinyl]

I suppose the only way to truly tell (everything being equal) is to buy 2 copies of an LP and leave one sealed for posterity (LOL). After 10 years play it and see what the difference is. Like you said Steve, mechanically speaking you'd think there is at least some level of deteriorization that takes place and I would personally concur with that.

However, like dobyblue (Steve) said, with a well-taken care of setup and a personal commitment to keeping your records safe, a vinyl record will give you years of perfectly superior(LOL) sound.

Take the plunge Steve...you know ya waaaaaaaaannna!

John

[zicmubleu]

Originally Posted by John72953

I suppose the only way to truly tell (everything being equal) is to buy 2 copies of an LP and leave one sealed for posterity (LOL). After 10 years play it and see what the difference is. Like you said Steve, mechanically speaking you'd think there is at least some level of deteriorization that takes place and I would personally concur with that.

However, like dobyblue (Steve) said, with a well-taken care of setup and a personal commitment to keeping your records safe, a vinyl record will give you years of perfectly superior(LOL) sound.

Take the plunge Steve...you know ya waaaaaaaaannna!

John

I don't think I will ever break down and spend thousands on a turntable and its required setup. I have a cheap one, and if I can find a good way to copy the music to an HTPC and then play it from there it would be fine with me. You guys really work hard at getting your turntables setup correctly, it is an art at the level you guys execute it, way beyond my patience. However I think even a cheap turntable can sound better than a CD on the vinyl's initial usage I just need to learn more about how to copy the music. Dobyblue has mentioned FLAC files and Casualkiller as well I believe, so I know there must be a good way to do that. I have no qualms about paying some reasonable cost for the vinyl, would prefer the same album on SACD but since SACD is not making any comeback, vinyl seems to be the way to go until Blu-ray audio gets going - if ever. Listening to music shouldn't be so much work.

I still think it is possible that Dobyblue has copied an older album and can recopy it to compare how it has held up for him with his analysis program he uses. I don't think there is any issue within forum guidelines, I certainly am not asking if Dobyblue has done something considered improper or unethical. He is probably digging through old files right now looking for a good test case.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by zicmubleu

I don't think I will ever break down and spend thousands on a turntable and its required setup. I have a cheap one, and if I can find a good way to copy the music to an HTPC and then play it from there it would be fine with me. You guys really work hard at getting your turntables setup correctly, it is an art at the level you guys execute it, way beyond my patience. However I think even a cheap turntable can sound better than a CD on the vinyl's initial usage I just need to learn more about how to copy the music. Dobyblue has mentioned FLAC files and Casualkiller as well I believe, so I know there must be a good way to do that. I have no qualms about paying some reasonable cost for the vinyl, would prefer the same album on SACD but since SACD is not making any comeback, vinyl seems to be the way to go until Blu-ray audio gets going - if ever. Listening to music shouldn't be so much work.

I still think it is possible that Dobyblue has copied an older album and can recopy it to compare how it has held up for him with his analysis program he uses. I don't think there is any issue within forum guidelines, I certainly am not asking if Dobyblue has done something considered improper or unethical. He is probably digging through old files right now looking for a good test case.

He may very well be!

John

[richteer]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

With a good stylus properly maintained and a correct vinyl set-up...I believe the number of times in my experience you can play a record before you notice any sonic degradation is limitless.

Agreed. I have records that I bought new 20+ years ago, and they still sound as good--and the surfaces are still as quiet--as they did all those years ago. Better, in fact, becuase my system has improved. Granted, I am VERY careful with records.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by richteer

Agreed. I have records that I bought new 20+ years ago, and they still sound as good--and the surfaces are still as quiet--as they did all those years ago. Better, in fact, becuase my system has improved. Granted, I am VERY careful with records.

Any news yet Rich? Love to see it happen for you!

John

[FreddieFerric]

The sound you hear from your vinyl record, the stylus tracing the record groove, is the product of friction. Friction in any medium inherently causes wear. The rate of wear is a direct product of the amount of friction. A good cartridge, properly weighted and aligned, working on a well cared for vinyl record will wear only in a minute amount. So minute as to be something less than limitless, but longer than the average lifespan of a human.

Play on and don't worry about it. Leave that to the next generation.

BTW, I don't have a high end TT, arm or cartridge. But it still manages to sound pretty damn sweet.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by BluRayFred

The sound you hear from your vinyl record, the stylus tracing the record groove, is the product of friction. Friction in any medium inherently causes wear. The rate of wear is a direct product of the amount of friction. A good cartridge, properly weighted and aligned, working on a well cared for vinyl record will wear only in a minute amount. So minute as to be something less than limitless, but longer than the average lifespan of a human.

Play on and don't worry about it. Leave that to the next generation.

BTW, I don't have a high end TT, arm or cartridge. But it still manages to sound pretty damn sweet.

ON! for Vinyl!

John

[dobyblue]

You know the Asus board I have in my PC is pretty sweet and I'm sure I could back-up my vinyl to 24-bit/192khz .flac files as it supports 8-channel audio at 24/192 PCM, dts-ma, DDTrueHD, as well as 1080p24 and 1080p60 through the built-in HDMI ports and analog inputs/outputs.

However I also note that there are vinyl rips through particular sites I use that I won't go into detail about that are done with set-ups far greater than mine. No doubt I can't find every record I own on there, but so far I'm comfortable enough with the way I look after my vinyl that I'm not worried about backing it up. Of course now I'm just sticking my nose up at karma and next week I'll probably accidentally drop a record on the floor that's super rare and scratch the crap out of it...at which point I may consider my stance.



On the topic of .flac - you would need to have a program that captures the audio input and set it up how you want it (24-bit/96kHz would likely be the lowest you'd want to go with vinyl) and then you'd simply take those .wav files and use FLAC Frontend to convert to .flac - I'm not aware of any program that would capture input directly to FLAC, but FLAC is lossless and so is your original .wav capture so it shouldn't matter.

[FreddieFerric]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

...Of course now I'm just sticking my nose up at karma and next week I'll probably accidentally drop a record on the floor that's super rare and scratch the crap out of it...at which point I may consider my stance...

Um, I ordered the 180 gram reissue of the Doobie Brothers "Captain And Me" from Amazon about 3 months ago. After waiting an interminable amount of time for it to finally arrive, I removed it from it packaging with all the care of handling a newborn. Played side one and side two and was extremely happy with it. Then an odd thing happened on the way back to its sleeve. Somehow that black beauty managed to sail from my grasp like a frizbee, crash against the side of my CD/DVD tower, then against the wooden album shelf, then against a book stack and finally to the floor. I witnessed it all in super-slomo! End result, nasty looking mar across about half of side two. Those momentary lapses are killers. Always tip your hat to the fates just out of an abundance of caution.

[CasualKiller]

Originally Posted by dobyblue

You know the Asus board I have in my PC is pretty sweet and I'm sure I could back-up my vinyl to 24-bit/192khz .flac files as it supports 8-channel audio at 24/192 PCM, dts-ma, DDTrueHD, as well as 1080p24 and 1080p60 through the built-in HDMI ports and analog inputs/outputs.

However I also note that there are vinyl rips through particular sites I use that I won't go into detail about that are done with set-ups far greater than mine. No doubt I can't find every record I own on there, but so far I'm comfortable enough with the way I look after my vinyl that I'm not worried about backing it up. Of course now I'm just sticking my nose up at karma and next week I'll probably accidentally drop a record on the floor that's super rare and scratch the crap out of it...at which point I may consider my stance.



On the topic of .flac - you would need to have a program that captures the audio input and set it up how you want it (24-bit/96kHz would likely be the lowest you'd want to go with vinyl) and then you'd simply take those .wav files and use FLAC Frontend to convert to .flac - I'm not aware of any program that would capture input directly to FLAC, but FLAC is lossless and so is your original .wav capture so it shouldn't matter.

Only thing needed to rip to FLAC is analog inputs on your soundcard. You run your phono pre amps output to those and the ripping program takes care of the rest.

[richteer]

Originally Posted by John72953

Any news yet Rich? Love to see it happen for you!

John

Are you referring to the magazine? Assuming you are, yes I'm making slow progress. My business plan (BP) is almost finished and I've started approaching some manufacturers for pricing for some stuff to upgrade my system (specifically, my cabling, acoustic treatments, and cartridge). There are some other upgrades I'd like to perform (most importantly a new phono stage and line stage), but I want to gauge the reaction from potential advertisers before I start too far down that road. The cost of these upgrades is part of the BP.

Once my business plan is finished I'll pass it round for comment to some friends I have who run successful businesses and after that I'll be in a position to make a go/no go call. At the moment, it's looking increasing likely to be a go!

I may be being overly cautious, but we'd be investing a fair chunk of our savings on this venture if I go ahead with it, so I have to be very sure that those funds can be replaced reasonably quickly!

[zicmubleu]

Originally Posted by richteer

Agreed. I have records that I bought new 20+ years ago, and they still sound as good--and the surfaces are still as quiet--as they did all those years ago. Better, in fact, becuase my system has improved. Granted, I am VERY careful with records.

Originally Posted by BluRayFred

The sound you hear from your vinyl record, the stylus tracing the record groove, is the product of friction. Friction in any medium inherently causes wear. The rate of wear is a direct product of the amount of friction. A good cartridge, properly weighted and aligned, working on a well cared for vinyl record will wear only in a minute amount. So minute as to be something less than limitless, but longer than the average lifespan of a human.

Play on and don't worry about it. Leave that to the next generation.

BTW, I don't have a high end TT, arm or cartridge. But it still manages to sound pretty damn sweet.

Originally Posted by John72953

ON! for Vinyl!

John

Maybe I should dig out my old records and try to clean them up and see how they sound. I think I had a better turntable back then than I do now so maybe they are OK. However I never took great care of them; I will look for that thread on vinyl TLC to see what I need to get them ready to play. If I play them I am going to want to copy them so that will really be a big undertaking. I would love to hear my old Ventures "Walk Don't Run '196x'" again if I still have it.

Originally Posted by dobyblue

You know the Asus board I have in my PC is pretty sweet and I'm sure I could back-up my vinyl to 24-bit/192khz .flac files as it supports 8-channel audio at 24/192 PCM, dts-ma, DDTrueHD, as well as 1080p24 and 1080p60 through the built-in HDMI ports and analog inputs/outputs.

However I also note that there are vinyl rips through particular sites I use that I won't go into detail about that are done with set-ups far greater than mine. No doubt I can't find every record I own on there, but so far I'm comfortable enough with the way I look after my vinyl that I'm not worried about backing it up. Of course now I'm just sticking my nose up at karma and next week I'll probably accidentally drop a record on the floor that's super rare and scratch the crap out of it...at which point I may consider my stance.



On the topic of .flac - you would need to have a program that captures the audio input and set it up how you want it (24-bit/96kHz would likely be the lowest you'd want to go with vinyl) and then you'd simply take those .wav files and use FLAC Frontend to convert to .flac - I'm not aware of any program that would capture input directly to FLAC, but FLAC is lossless and so is your original .wav capture so it shouldn't matter.

I need to do some research and see what I can start assembling, thanks Dobyblue for the general guidance. And thanks to the rest of you for your thoughts on vinyl life actuary

[Show spoiler]turn

tables.