4K UHD Blu-ray Playback on PC Desktop is officially dead in 2021?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by apollo828

Okay? PowerDVD plays rips (although I'm not 100% sure about 4K, which may be forced through the SGX decryption abomination), and it plays regular Blus too. Weren't you the one who posted some video of some guy who swore up & down that DVDGo was playing a 4K disc, only to have it turn out that it was a normal Blu? If so, your track record in this regard isn't exactly stellar. I'll take the word of countless people who know how this stuff works, and even random people on forums who try everything under the sun when trying to play their discs, over one video that has, conveniently enough, disappeared.

PowerDVD 22 Ultra plays back both 8K and 4K videos from a consumer camcorder. I know a family member with a old year 2017 Sony 4K camcorder that records to a SDXC card, and that camera footage will playback on PowerDVD 22 Ultra at 3840 x 2160P quality using the MPEG-4/AVC codec with studio master LPCM 2.0 stereo sound. However, I have not personally tried a 8K camcorder but the specs say it is supported in PowerDVD 22 ultra. The 4K Blu-ray format only supports MPEG-4/AVC up to 1080P quality, and when native 4K is used the better quality HEVC codec is needed.

So any unencrypted video file from 480i to 8K is supported with PowerDVD 22 Ultra. The nightmare occurs when one tries to playback 4K Blu-ray discs since the security requirements are so unacceptable that the SGX hardware providers and software providers dropped 4K Blu-ray playback from a Windows PC.

[HDTV1080P]

A few years ago, it use to be that no standard BD-ROM drive would read BD-66 and BD-100 4K Blu-ray discs. One had to buy a BD-ROM drive with the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo in order to be able to read 4K Blu-ray discs. However, since all new motherboards and CPU’s (only Intel was supported for 4K Blu-ray playback), stopped offering the required SGX hardware-based security technology in 2020, and also since less then 1% of PC’s made between 2015 to 2020 offered SGX technology, it is my understanding that the 4K BD-ROM drive companies were getting a lot of complaints from customers since they could not play 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. Therefore, companies like Pioneer in the last year for the new November 2022 models removed the “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo from all their BD-ROM drives and stopped marketing the feature, that less then 1% of consumers had the hardware to playback the discs. However, on the higher end Pioneer BD-ROM drives that lack the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo, if one looks in the specs some of the higher end Pioneer BD-ROM drives list in the specs that the drive is “Ultra HD Blu-ray compatible”. LG most likely is doing the same removing the “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo from their drives, but more research would be needed on the LG drives. But anyways there is a strong possibility that Pioneer and other BD-ROM drive manufactories might remove the “Ultra HD Blu-ray” feature from future models (I am hoping that they do not), since if there is no way to playback 4K Blu-ray discs on a desktop or Laptop/Notebook computer now, having a feature that adds around $56+ to the cost of the drive does not make sense. If all the BD-ROM drives were made to be “Ultra HD Blu-ray compatible” then it might only add $25 to the cost of the drive instead of an additional $56+, but unless someone steps in and creates a hardware/software method to playback 4K Blu-ray discs on a PC, there is no reason why the new coming BD-ROM models would offer that legacy feature that cannot be used. Also the BDA may decide not to license any future BD-ROM drive that offers the legacy “Ultra HD Blu-ray compatible” feature.

The best internal Pioneer BD-ROM drive for desktop computers that still supports 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc reading is the Pioneer BDR-S13U-X for $290.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-S13U-X

The second best internal Pioneer BD-ROM drive for desktop computers that still supports 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc reading is the BDR-S13UBK for $175.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-S13UBK

The best external USB 3.2 Generation 1 BD-ROM drive for any Windows computers that still supports 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc is $230.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-X13U-S

The smallest and cheapest external USB 3.2 generation 1 BD-ROM drive for any Windows computers that still supports 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray disc is $140.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P.../BDR-XD08UMB-S

But again, the above drives might be out of production or soon going out of production and replaced with cheaper models for $50 less that do not support the reading of 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray discs. That is a decision Pioneer, and the Blu-ray Disc Association needs to make if they will allow a computer drive to be licensed with the legacy 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray feature (especially now since there is no legal software on any computer to playback the discs).

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

A few years ago, it use to be that no standard BD-ROM drive would read BD-66 and BD-100 4K Blu-ray discs. One had to buy a BD-ROM drive with the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo in order to be able to read 4K Blu-ray discs.

As another poster said elsewhere, please stop. You really must have some sort of brain issue that prevents you from realizing that you're completely and utterly wrong on so many things. (As if the non-stop babbling about the same talking points ad infinitum wasn't a huge clue....) I can read UHD discs perfectly fine on multiple drives that support BDXL but aren't Ultra HD-compliant (i.e., they don't have the extra firmware capabilities required by AACS 2.0). If you can't read those discs, you own lousy hardware. That's on you. Plenty of us can read our discs just fine.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by apollo828

As another poster said elsewhere, please stop. You really must have some sort of brain issue that prevents you from realizing that you're completely and utterly wrong on so many things. (As if the non-stop babbling about the same talking points ad infinitum wasn't a huge clue....) I can read UHD discs perfectly fine on multiple drives that support BDXL but aren't Ultra HD-compliant (i.e., they don't have the extra firmware capabilities required by AACS 2.0). If you can't read those discs, you own lousy hardware. That's on you. Plenty of us can read our discs just fine.

Once again, all the Pioneer BDXL drives in 2015 and even in 2016 would not read 4K Blu-ray discs. It was not until Pioneer released a BDXL drive with the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo was one able to read 4K Blu-ray discs. I have owned almost every generation of Pioneer BD-ROM drives and have first-hand experience, including using the latest Pioneer BD-ROM drive firmware updates. Maybe the LG BDXL drives were different. But in this last post I never mentioned “BDXL” and only mentioned “standard BD-ROM”. There is no standard BD-ROM drive that plays 4K Blu-ray discs.

[HDTV1080P]

Here is a Pioneer BDXL drive for $160 that does not offer 4K Blu-ray playback according to the specs. But the other Pioneer drives I mentioned support 4K Blu-ray reading of the discs.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ves/BDR-X13UBK

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Once again, all the Pioneer BDXL drives in 2015 and even in 2016 would not read 4K Blu-ray discs. It was not until Pioneer released a BDXL drive with the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo was one able to read 4K Blu-ray discs.

Take that up with Pioneer. I don't use Pioneer gear. Sounds like they sold you a fake bill of goods, as mentioned earlier when I wrote about how Pioneer reportedly gimps their firmware. At the physical level, UHD discs are essentially BDXL discs. If Pioneer BDXL drives without BDA's blessing can't read them at all, that's Pioneer's problem.

Meanwhile, LG was kind enough to make hardware revisions to old Blu drives going back to 2014, allowing the revised models to read BDXL discs and, by extension, UHD discs. What's your explanation for that if it's supposedly impossible to read UHD discs without being blessed by the BDA?

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by apollo828

Take that up with Pioneer. I don't use Pioneer gear. Sounds like they sold you a fake bill of goods, as mentioned earlier when I wrote about how Pioneer reportedly gimps their firmware. At the physical level, UHD discs are essentially BDXL discs. If Pioneer BDXL drives without BDA's blessing can't read them at all, that's Pioneer's problem.

Meanwhile, LG was kind enough to make hardware revisions to old Blu drives going back to 2014, allowing the revised models to read BDXL discs and, by extension, UHD discs. What's your explanation for that if it's supposedly impossible to read UHD discs without being blessed by the BDA?

4K Blu-ray and BDXL are different formats. BDXL blank media is only offered in 100GB and 128GB and no 66GB disc is offered for BDXL. There exists no blank BD-66 and BD-100 4K Blu-ray discs and they are all stamped (pressed). No standalone 4K Blu-ray player supports BDXL discs according to the official specs. BDXL discs are for backing up computer data and files on BDXL BD-R drives.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

4K Blu-ray and BDXL are different formats.

Read the spec for yourself. In terms of how the discs are physically read, they use the exact same specs (not counting BD50 UHDs but, physically, they're just plain Blus). Again, if Pioneer drives are unable to read a pressed disc with the exact same encoding specs as a burned disc, that's on them. Saying they're different formats is like saying chocolate ice cream isn't ice cream because it's not vanilla. Different flavors, same results.

Either way, you still haven't answered my question. What's LG's secret?

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I owned a Pioneer BDXL BD-ROM drive in 2015 and it would not read 4K Blu-ray discs. A few years later I had to buy a Pioneer BD-ROM drive with the official “Ultra HD Blu-ray” logo in order for the drive to read 4K Blu-ray files that the Windows operating system could see. But then since my year 2015 X99 motherboard lacked SGX technolgoy I could not playback the 4K Blu-ray discs on a Windows PC.

Ultra HD Blu-ray was not even a thing in 2015. It came out in 2016.

[HDTV1080P]

Originally Posted by BijouMan

Ultra HD Blu-ray was not even a thing in 2015. It came out in 2016.

Yes that is true 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray players launched in 2016. I was just stating a fact that there are many BDXL drives from 2015-2022 that will not read 4K Bu-ray discs. Pioneer appears to have went 100% BDXL computer drives around November of 2022, and only four of those 2022 models work with 4K Blu-ray discs, many of the modern-day Pioneer BDXL drives made in 2022 according to the specs do not read 4K Blu-ray discs. But all this is a non-issue since in November 2023 no company offers software anymore to playback 4K Blu-ray discs on a Windows PC.

This thread in theory will die and the remaining PowerDVD 17 through 22 Ultra owners will just go out and buy a standalone 4K Blu-ray player or switch to 4K Ultra HD streaming from Netflix, Amazon or another provider.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

Yes that is true 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray players launched in 2016. I was just stating a fact that there are many BDXL drives from 2015-2022 that will not read 4K Bu-ray discs. Pioneer appears to have went 100% BDXL computer drives around November of 2022, and only four of those 2022 models work with 4K Blu-ray discs, many of the modern-day Pioneer BDXL drives made in 2022 according to the specs do not read 4K Blu-ray discs. But all this is a non-issue since in November 2023 no company offers software anymore to playback 4K Blu-ray discs on a Windows PC.

This thread in theory will die and the remaining PowerDVD 17 through 22 Ultra owners will just go out and buy a standalone 4K Blu-ray player or switch to 4K Ultra HD streaming from Netflix, Amazon or another provider.

My main concern was for UHD Blu-ray as a portable format like DVD was. Here's what I believe is why it failed in this regard, unlike DVD.

Back when DVD first came out, computer hard drives could barely hold the entire contents of a DVD (8.5 GB). The largest hard drive available at the time (1997) was a 16 GB drive, and most computers weren't going to ship with such an expensive drive. Mind you, this was the largest desktop (3.5") hard drive, and assuming you didn't store anything else on it, you'd barely be able to fit more than 2 DVD movies assuming they take up most of a disc's space. I can't find much data as to what the largest laptop (2.5") hard drive was, but the late 1998 PowerBook G3 in its highest spec was the first Apple laptop to ship with a DVD drive and playback (which was so demanding it ran through a dedicated decoder card) and shipped with an 8 GB hard drive.

Internet connections were nowhere near fast enough to carry the bitrate of DVD-Video (up to about 8 Mbps.) Anyone who streamed video off the Internet, even slightly later than this, will remember just how terrible it looked (much worse than even the consumer analog videotape systems.) Just so you know, Warner Bros. still has the website for the 1996 film Space Jam up and running to this day so you can see what browsing the web would have been like in the 90s. So, because of this, DVD was pretty much the only means by which you could watch decent-quality feature-length films on your laptop.

Fast forward to when Blu-ray came out. 3.5" hard drives had just hit 750 GB and 2.5" hard drives had just hit 200 GB, with most computers shipping with much smaller drives. Internet streaming services would only launch just slightly later, and I would suspect there is a large quality difference between early streaming and modern streaming, and there was a much more limited selection compared to now. Still, it would be decent enough for most people, and for playing physical discs, most still found DVD good enough for casual laptop viewing. However, at least there were enough that wanted to be able to watch Blu-ray Discs on their laptop that companies (aside from Apple) would ship some higher-end laptops with Blu-ray drives and playback software. They even made some standalone portable Blu-ray players.

Now when we get to Ultra HD Blu-ray, the difference in resolution was not immediately noticeable, especially on a laptop-sized screen. There was, of course, the HDR factor, but at that point streaming services had grown to offer a much larger selection and started including HDR on some of the streams. While HDR can look amazing when you see it, there was (and still is) nothing wrong with SDR, especially for casually viewing a movie. Even without HDR, today's streaming and digital downloads still very much beat DVD in terms of quality. The overwhelming majority of consumers saw (and still see) no reason to pursue any additional quality for laptop viewing at this point, and almost all who purchased UHD Blu-ray discs were (and still are) perfectly content with relegating them to their home AV equipment as it can take much better advantage of the format's potential. As a result, only very few consumers would purchase a UHD Blu-ray drive and software to play the discs on their laptop. The only laptop I am aware of to ship with a UHD Blu-ray drive is the VAIO S15 (9th Gen Intel) that is only available in Japan. If playing UHD Blu-ray discs on computers had become much more widespread than it did, then we would probably already have a way of playing these aside from SGX as there would have been enough demand for the companies to feel it worthwhile to develop such a solution. Of course, if the companies do end up deciding to surprise us like Disney did when it announced we would be getting discs for The Mandalorian, I will definitely be on board. I always wonder how much better the technology world could have been if there had been a much larger uptake on every new format that came out (like Video8 as a home TV recording format in the late 80s, DV as a home TV recording format in the late 90s, DVD-RAM as removable computer storage in the late 90s to early 2000s, etc.)

[ronboster]

Bot on Bot action is so unsexy.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by HDTV1080P

I was just stating a fact that there are many BDXL drives from 2015-2022 that will not read 4K Bu-ray discs.

As I already said, that's due to Pioneer intentionally gimping their drives in an attempt to force people to spend more. For years, it was possible to cross-flash BDXL drives with other firmware that allowed them to read UHD discs. It's no longer possible to do that if your drive has have firmware from Dec. 2022 or later. (I'm sure there's a way around it but nobody has figured it out yet.)

In any event, yet again, that's why I said UHD is basically BDXL. It's possible to distinguish the discs due to minutiae but, in practice, they're exactly the same. LG doesn't care and lets you read them with any of their BDXL drives. Pioneer cares, even if, up until recently, it was possible to work around their arbitrary restrictions. Purchase accordingly.

(Before a multi-paragraph screed comes in, yes, I know this doesn't matter to people who only care about PowerDVD. It does matter to people like me.)

[halohalo]

Pioneer released BDR-X13J-X, but the bundled PowerDVD 14 no longer supports UHD Blu-ray playback.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by halohalo

Pioneer released BDR-X13J-X, but the bundled PowerDVD 14 no longer supports UHD Blu-ray playback.

Just curious, do you mean that it was patched such that support was turned off? I figured something like that would happen eventually.

[halohalo]

Originally Posted by apollo828

Just curious, do you mean that it was patched such that support was turned off? I figured something like that would happen eventually.

https://jpn.pioneer/ja/pcperipherals...x13j-x/bundle/

Official site doesn't explain the reason, so I have no idea about it. But it seems that CyberLink released the patch for bundled PowerDVD 14 to make it compatible with 12th Gen Intel processors in 2022.

[apollo828]

Originally Posted by halohalo

Official site doesn't explain the reason, so I have no idea about it. But it seems that CyberLink released the patch for bundled PowerDVD 14 to make it compatible with 12th Gen Intel processors in 2022.

I doubt there's a patch for 11th or 12th gen processors. That would require working around the lack of SGX, which wouldn't be officially allowed. My personal guess is one or both of the following are happening:

- The "UHD isn't supported" line may not be true in certain instances, with older hardware, but Pioneer wrote it so that they're no longer on the hook for support.
- PowerDVD, if it hasn't happened already, will eventually stub out UHD support. IIRC, even current systems still have to phone home on occasion. (I'd have to go back and re-read a paper to find the specific circumstances.) Cyberlink can patch out the support altogether or just kill the remote support required to get everything to work. The latter would theoretically allow current users to continue to play discs that work today.

[halohalo]

Cyberlink released PowerDVD 22 build 3403, which removed UHD Blu-ray playback.

[halohalo]

Originally Posted by apollo828

I doubt there's a patch for 11th or 12th gen processors. That would require working around the lack of SGX, which wouldn't be officially allowed.

It has nothing to do with UHD Blu-ray playback. CyberLink also released patches for PowerDVD 20~22 to fix compatibility issues with 12th gen Intel processors.

[BijouMan]

Originally Posted by halohalo

It has nothing to do with UHD Blu-ray playback. CyberLink also released patches for PowerDVD 20~22 to fix compatibility issues with 12th gen Intel processors.

They were just trying to fix any issues people had with standard Blu-ray playback, not UHD Blu-ray playback. Not sure if anyone here with version 21 or earlier can still play UHD Blu-ray discs if they have a machine made during the right time.