STUTTER/JUDDER FREE TVs?

[SWF]

I got my first UHD TV last year (Sony Bravia X80J), I wish I had done better research, since it doesn't have the deep black levels I like, but I with it came a new problem I never experience before: stutter/judder. Not sure which I have. Reviews say it fixes judder quite, so it may be stutter I have, and only in blu-ray/UHD movies, and on in panning shots with a light source. Dark scenes are perfectly fine. The worst movie I have with this is effect is Ronin Flix's horror comedy THERE'S NOTHING OUT THERE. My god, the amount of stutter/judder in that movie is obscene. Ha! Most of my research seems to suggest a particular TV my deal with judder, but still have stutter and vice versa. I hear OLEDs are notorious for having varying degrees of stutter. I get the feeling TV makers don't even make basic 1080p HD TVs anymore, they're either all OLEDS, smart TVs and/or UHDs. Only way to fix it is to enable some degree of motion smoothing, which does work, but now the image has that soap opera effect I can't stand. If it's between that and stutter, I'll take the stutter. My question is do they even make UHD TVs that are stutter/judder free? Or at the very least a minimum of stutter/judder-ness?

[CatBus]

There are many different factors at play here.

I looked up the specs for the Sony Bravia X80J, and it looks like it's a native 50Hz panel. In terms of motion fidelity, that's an immediate problem, as most Blu-ray/UHDs are ~24fps, and 24 doesn't go into 50 a whole number of times, so you will see stuttering. So if you're really wanting motion fidelity, you have to go at least native 120Hz, and that means buying a new display. The problem is, after the most recent demise of 3D, 50/60 Hz panels have been actually taking a larger share of the market, and 120Hz panels are pretty exclusive to the high end. So, if you go 120Hz, you'll be paying for it. Even OLEDs often don't even have 120Hz panels, probably as a means to get them to a more competitive price point.

Now, some degree of judder is inherent in film. If you pan across a scene at 24fps, you are more likely than not going to get some judder. It's not smooth because the intervals are too far apart. However, if this doesn't bother you watching films projected in the theater, it shouldn't bother you seeing the exact same thing at home. This sort of judder is what the proponents of high-framerate films are always on about. But the fact of the matter is that, with very few exceptions, movies are still about 24fps and you need a set that can deal with that appropriately.

You mentioned you don't like soap opera effect, and that's just a display's way of making a 24fps film seem as if it were a higher framerate by fudging extra frames to fill the gaps. It looks wrong because it makes a 24fps film look like it's not a 24fps film. "Soap opera" is just a way of describing that uncanny sensation that the motion is not correct for that film. It does reduce the judder inherent in film, but I think you and I agree that even if you think that's a worthwhile goal at all, it's still not worth the tradeoff.

There is something about modern displays other than mismatched framerates that makes motion seem wrong. It's due to image persistence between frames, and it makes motion seem blurry or smeary. Projectors solved this problem long ago by flashing every frame 3 times, or approximating a 144Hz display showing each frame three times alternating with a black frame three times. Modern displays can do something similar to this with something called BFI or black frame insertion. But there are two downsides: it cuts the brightness of your display quite a bit, and at too low of a refresh rate, it can cause visible flickering (this was mostly a Plasma problem back in the day, I haven't seen it on a modern display).

In summary: 50Hz is going to give you stuttering on pretty much any films you watch. There is some degree of judder inherent in pretty much any film due to the low framerate, and you're not getting rid of that without changing the fundamental appearance of the film via soap opera effect. Watch some movies in a theater to get an idea of the normal about of judder. And there's a feature of some displays called BFI which is generally good for motion fidelity on high-refresh displays, but could theoretically cause visible flicker if enabled on a low-refresh display.

[Mark2020]

Thanks for that explaination Catbus. I bought a Hisense 55U6K (which has a 60Hz refresh rate) from Best Buy and ended up returning it because of the very same issues you've elaborated on. I value a good movie experience with my TV, so I'll probably be going with the 55U7k (which has a 120Hz refresh rate and better processing).

[RFK]

I still use my 2 plasma tv's since there's no other choice for smooth, film like motion anymore. Also love my JVC projector.

[MrGarmonbozia]

Originally Posted by RFK

I still use my 2 plasma tv's since there's no other choice for smooth, film like motion anymore. Also love my JVC projector.

Ain't it the truth. I've been griping to friends, for the last two months since "upgrading" that 4k modern tvs are exceptionally frustrating for multiple reasons like banding, blooming, DSE, burn in, stutter and judder, audio sync issues, etc. Zero of those issues ever happened on my now "outdated" Panny Plasma.

What are we accepting for brighter screens, colors, deeper blacks, etc.

Anyway, my issues is similar to the OP.

After dealing with 3 Hisenses with various issues (including the aforementioned banding/DSO and audio issues), I ponied up more for a
SONY X90L.

And was blown away by how amazing it looked after some settings tweeking. Popped in Spider-Man Remastered and it was fantastic.

I thought I finally found the upgrade I'd been looking for.

Then I started watching the Shout Factory Ti Lung / David Chang set. These old Kung-fu flicks have a lot of panning shots and...

urgh...this is how I discovered what I now know is judder.

The last few days I've been reading about it, all the techy stuff regarding these newer tvs pull down processing vs the plasma way.

I've tinkered with CINEMOTION and MOTION FLOW settings with results that can fix the judder but you trade it for:

Soap Opera Effect that make these old movies look, well, fake
Darker screen with BFI
Artefacts like motion lines or weird smears over solid backgrounds with Cinemotion on high.

Essentially, most of the threads I've read on this basically lead to:
This is how tvs are now when displaying 24fps content. You gotta live with it.

To which I retort: all your snazzy bells and whistles like Dolby Vision, Atmos, etc. don't mean jack if you can't hammer down the basic foundation of motion for content frame rates most of are still watching predominately with these new tvs.

The smoothing suggestion is really a horrible trade off. Seriously, who wants Casablanca to look like it was shot with a GoPro.

For all the moaning (rightfully so, in most cases) we do here regarding films being altered (read: Batman's sound, True Lies lack of grain, Titanic missing a couple sentences, changes in colour pallets like The Godfather/Midnight Cowboy, a smacking sound not being includes in a Friday the 13th flick...you get the idea), it's mind boggling how many accept the removal of 24fps (the original intent of the filmmakers) for smoother, more realistic motion.

More so, I wonder how many people don't even switch off or tinker with these settings and first viewings of films with SOE is totally normal for them.

Anyway, I'm off my soap (opera effect) box now

As to the OPs, I don't know if there's a total fix or if any TV handles this better than Sony's processing which is top notch.

My only "fix" (though unsure if some of these options are available on our set) was to crank up brightness to full, crank up local dimming, crank up peak luminance, add +1 gamma, black level 50 and THEN switch clarity to 2. Cinemotion on low. (At least for these old kung fu movies)

It still cuts a lot of brightness out but it's not so dark you can't enjoy the film in a darker room.

There IS still judder in the slow pans but it's more tolerable.

Still, you gotta' say, what am I paying for if I can't really enjoy a good panning shot without jacking down certain settings that make the PQ fantastic otherwise?

[TheWalkingDead]

[Show spoiler]

Originally Posted by MrGarmonbozia

Ain't it the truth. I've been griping to friends, for the last two months since "upgrading" that 4k modern tvs are exceptionally frustrating for multiple reasons like banding, blooming, DSE, burn in, stutter and judder, audio sync issues, etc. Zero of those issues ever happened on my now "outdated" Panny Plasma.

What are we accepting for brighter screens, colors, deeper blacks, etc.

Anyway, my issues is similar to the OP.

After dealing with 3 Hisenses with various issues (including the aforementioned banding/DSO and audio issues), I ponied up more for a
SONY X90L.

And was blown away by how amazing it looked after some settings tweeking. Popped in Spider-Man Remastered and it was fantastic.

I thought I finally found the upgrade I'd been looking for.

Then I started watching the Shout Factory Ti Lung / David Chang set. These old Kung-fu flicks have a lot of panning shots and...

urgh...this is how I discovered what I now know is judder.

The last few days I've been reading about it, all the techy stuff regarding these newer tvs pull down processing vs the plasma way.

I've tinkered with CINEMOTION and MOTION FLOW settings with results that can fix the judder but you trade it for:

Soap Opera Effect that make these old movies look, well, fake
Darker screen with BFI
Artefacts like motion lines or weird smears over solid backgrounds with Cinemotion on high.

Essentially, most of the threads I've read on this basically lead to:
This is how tvs are now when displaying 24fps content. You gotta live with it.

To which I retort: all your snazzy bells and whistles like Dolby Vision, Atmos, etc. don't mean jack if you can't hammer down the basic foundation of motion for content frame rates most of are still watching predominately with these new tvs.

The smoothing suggestion is really a horrible trade off. Seriously, who wants Casablanca to look like it was shot with a GoPro.

For all the moaning (rightfully so, in most cases) we do here regarding films being altered (read: Batman's sound, True Lies lack of grain, Titanic missing a couple sentences, changes in colour pallets like The Godfather/Midnight Cowboy, a smacking sound not being includes in a Friday the 13th flick...you get the idea), it's mind boggling how many accept the removal of 24fps (the original intent of the filmmakers) for smoother, more realistic motion.

More so, I wonder how many people don't even switch off or tinker with these settings and first viewings of films with SOE is totally normal for them.

Anyway, I'm off my soap (opera effect) box now

As to the OPs, I don't know if there's a total fix or if any TV handles this better than Sony's processing which is top notch.

My only "fix" (though unsure if some of these options are available on our set) was to crank up brightness to full, crank up local dimming, crank up peak luminance, add +1 gamma, black level 50 and THEN switch clarity to 2. Cinemotion on low. (At least for these old kung fu movies)

It still cuts a lot of brightness out but it's not so dark you can't enjoy the film in a darker room.

There IS still judder in the slow pans but it's more tolerable.

Still, you gotta' say, what am I paying for if I can't really enjoy a good panning shot without jacking down certain settings that make the PQ fantastic otherwise?

So I take it, filmmakers know their panning shots will show judder. Why wouldn't (is it even possible) they film just those shots at a higher frame rate?

[oddbox83]

Originally Posted by TheWalkingDead

[Show spoiler]

So I take it, filmmakers know their panning shots will show judder. Why wouldn't (is it even possible) they film just those shots at a higher frame rate?

There are several movies shot at higher frame rates.

Audiences have proven very resistant to this so it's not catching on yet.

Shooting just those shots at a higher frame rate would leave a film with mixed frame rates, which doesn't work for current formats very well as well as the artistic elements where switching between frame rates would leave movie with the piebald look that older taped TV shows had when they switched between indoor studio and outdoor shot on film.

[CompleteCount]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

where switching between frame rates would leave movie with the piebald look that older taped tv shows had when they switched between indoor studio and outdoor shot on film.

film python.jpg

[scarletlion]

I too have battled with this judder issue for the last 2 years since I got a LG OLED. I love the TV but the judder is so noticeable that I now switch between the motion smoothing option and non motion smooth option depending on what film I watch.

The opening 2 minutes of 'Hell and High Water' involves a loooong panning shot of a car - and it is unwatchable due to the judder. So when I watch it I use motion smooth and then turn it off after this scene. It's ridiculous. I have tried all combinations of dimming and motion smooth amounts but can't settle on a setting.

The artefcats that get introduced when motion smoothing is on are too awful to have it on permenantly. They are so bad that they make subtitles glitch and wobbly, even when the subtitles are located on the black banding and not part of the actual film image. Work that one out. Any scene with someone in a car or a train (that's alot of films) introduces awful artefacts on the fast motion backgrounds of trees and things as they woosh by.

So I like to leave it on Film-maker mode which has really gorgeous clarity and a beautiful image - but then halfway through a film - a slow panning shot occurs and boom massive frame stutter.

Home cinema purgatory.

[oddbox83]

I love that my Sony A95K has a very mild motion smoothing setting when on 1. I just set that and leave it. My LG B8 on the other hand gave me objectionable artefacts even on lowest so I would constantly be turning it off and on depending on the movie and what was less bad!

[CompleteCount]

My Panasonic GZ950 OLED has the "Film Smooth" setting on "1", and it does the job rather well, creating pretty smooth panning without the soap-opera effect or incurring any nasties as a consequence.

I bought a really nice (and pricey...) Sony LCD in about 14 years ago, and while the image was excellent, the judder on pans drove me batty. I stuck with it, but replaced it with the Panny about 4 years ago.

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by oddbox83

I love that my Sony A95K has a very mild motion smoothing setting when on 1. I just set that and leave it. My LG B8 on the other hand gave me objectionable artefacts even on lowest so I would constantly be turning it off and on depending on the movie and what was less bad!

Seems to be the issue on older LG OLEDs. My C9 is a pain with motion when I have Real Cinema "On." I can't handle the natural stutter OLEDs have, so I have Real Cinema "Off" but still outputting 24p. It's still a smooth picture thanks to the 120 Hz panel, but there is still a slight judder.

Newer LG OLEDs have the "Cinematic Movement" setting in the TruMotion area which smooths out the stutter without the soap opera effect. I've heard it's exactly what the older OLEDs need but I'm sure it wouldn't work due to older LG OLEDs having older processing.

[batman2000]

Originally Posted by PUsokrJosh305

Seems to be the issue on older LG OLEDs. My C9 is a pain with motion when I have Real Cinema "On." I can't handle the natural stutter OLEDs have, so I have Real Cinema "Off" but still outputting 24p. It's still a smooth picture thanks to the 120 Hz panel, but there is still a slight judder.

Newer LG OLEDs have the "Cinematic Movement" setting in the TruMotion area which smooths out the stutter without the soap opera effect. I've heard it's exactly what the older OLEDs need but I'm sure it wouldn't work due to older LG OLEDs having older processing.

Lg oleds are way to expensive how about a tv that’s a reasonable price

[PUsokrJosh305]

Originally Posted by batman2000

Lg oleds are way to expensive how about a tv that’s a reasonable price

I'm not sure what your definition of "reasonable price" is but if you are looking for a good quality TV, then you will need to spend a pretty penny on it. These TVs that go for $150-$200 are cheap and won't last you. And the lower priced you get, the worse the TV will perform.