Murderock (Dancing Death) (4K UHD) 88 Films

[Yosef Quilty]

I've read some reviews of the VS disc and the 88 disc (from different sites/reviewers so ofc take that with a huge grain of salt), but the reviews of the VS disc mentioned deep blacks while a review of the 88 mentioned some raised gamma and lower contrast in the darker scenes. Anyone who's seen both disc able to confirm?

[Keoma]

Originally Posted by Yosef Quilty

I've read some reviews of the VS disc and the 88 disc (from different sites/reviewers so ofc take that with a huge grain of salt), but the reviews of the VS disc mentioned deep blacks while a review of the 88 mentioned some raised gamma and lower contrast in the darker scenes. Anyone who's seen both disc able to confirm?

I have the 88 disc and it looks solid to me. Only thing I was not crazy about was the artwork. But then again, I think I like the one on the VS disc even less. Luckily, the 88 release offers the original art on the reversible sleeve, so this is no problem.

Are you referring to this review?
https://www.avforums.com/reviews/mur...-review.22811/

If so, these are a couple of a good excerpts regarding the black levels, with which I tend to agree:

"...but it never once feels like anything other than a 1980s colour grading brought to a shiny and digital life... Murder-Rock looks exactly like it should: a hazy, dream-like film shot over forty years ago on a low budget. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t look fabulous…because it does."

I have only seen screengrabs of the VS disc, but in those grabs blacks looked intentionally lowered. In other words, they may look inkier, but not necessarily accurate and faithful to the original photography or theatrical look. Pick your poison, I suppose.

In the end, I am sure they both have their pros and cons. I am personally extremely happy with the 88 release.

[Yosef Quilty]

Originally Posted by Keoma

I have the 88 disc and it looks solid to me. Only thing I was not crazy about was the artwork. But then again, I think I like the one on the VS disc even less. Luckily, the 88 release offers the original art on the reversible sleeve, so this is no problem.

Are you referring to this review?
https://www.avforums.com/reviews/mur...-review.22811/

If so, these are a couple of a good excerpts regarding the black levels, with which I tend to agree:

"...but it never once feels like anything other than a 1980s colour grading brought to a shiny and digital life... Murder-Rock looks exactly like it should: a hazy, dream-like film shot over forty years ago on a low budget. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t look fabulous…because it does."

I have only seen screengrabs of the VS disc, but in those grabs blacks looked intentionally lowered. In other words, they may look inkier, but not necessarily accurate and faithful to the original photography or theatrical look. Pick your poison, I suppose.

In the end, I am sure they both have their pros and cons. I am personally extremely happy with the 88 release.

Yes, it was that one! Happy to hear the 88 disc still looks great. I'd still love to see cap comparisons (*nudges users who have both discs*), but your first hand account is very valuable. Been wanting to grab it because of the 88 sale right now, but needed confirmation.

While you're at it, I did find this online: https://slow.pics/c/CYv3l0tA
It's a comparison between the Scorpion and the VS. If you're able do you think you'd be able to note how the 88 compares to any of these caps? I noticed the grading's a little different between the Scorpion and VS, so aside from the VS having possibly lowered blacks than the 88, if there could be any difference in color too?

[Muyfa666]

FWIW, I also think the 88 looks exactly like I expect and want it to look for a film of it's era. :-)

[Yosef Quilty]

Originally Posted by Muyfa666

FWIW, I also think the 88 looks exactly like I expect and want it to look for a film of it's era. :-)

Sounds like the 88 disc is a pretty safe bet. It was my assumption before either disc came out that they'd probably perform better than the VS. Has there ever been a situation where a VS release outdid something from 88? I feel like it's always 88 > VS.

[Muyfa666]

Originally Posted by Yosef Quilty

Sounds like the 88 disc is a pretty safe bet. It was my assumption before either disc came out that they'd probably perform better than the VS. Has there ever been a situation where a VS release outdid something from 88? I feel like it's always 88 > VS.

There are some nice releases from VS, but in general 88 Films are really good.

[Mr. Chaverria]

Originally Posted by Muyfa666

There are some nice releases from VS, but in general 88 Films are really good.

Righting Wrongs was better via 88 Films for sure. I saw VS' so much that when 88 Films' came in... it was obvious to me.

VS did release the UHD of Ebola Syndrome though. Whereas 88 Films only did the BD... a year after the BD.

[Yosef Quilty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Chaverria

Righting Wrongs was better via 88 Films for sure. I saw VS' so much that when 88 Films' came in... it was obvious to me.

VS did release the UHD of Ebola Syndrome though. Whereas 88 Films only did the BD... a year after the BD.

Did a ton of digging in threads and yeah pretty seems to be 88 usually puts out better 4K discs than VS (especially HK stuff like Righting Wrongs, Magic Crystal, Iceman Cometh, etc). Though interestingly, their blu-rays (particularly from the Slasher Classics Collection) are usually worse than VS, so maybe this only applies to 88's 4K's...

@DaylightsEnd has previously declared 88 as pretty much always besting Severin, I wonder if with releases like A Blade in the Dark and potentially Murder Rock , we might be able to say the same about VS too.

(If 88 is better than Severin and VS, it's interesting that so far Celluloid Dreams has bested 88. We could potentially be seeing CD > 88 > Severin/VS)

[Mr. Chaverria]

I don't think I know Celluloid Dreams.

What have they done? Looking at my collection on the site, their name doesn't pop up. I may not know anything of them but you have my intrigue as to what they may have released already.

[Yosef Quilty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Chaverria

I don't think I know Celluloid Dreams.

What have they done? Looking at my collection on the site, their name doesn't pop up. I may not know anything of them but you have my intrigue as to what they may have released already.

They're a very, very new label (like they only have two releases) that specialize in Italian giallo. So far they've done Case of the Bloody Iris and Short Night of Glass Dolls and both have been totally stellar 4K's. Especially in the case of Glass Dolls, which came out at the same time as 88's, it totally took the win, both in encode and color grading which was far more faithful to the original. Someone from CD made a very long, very detailed post in that release's thread about the way they approached grading the film and the reasons for it which really shows that they're taking the time to make each release special. Their next upcoming 4K will be Black Belly of the Tarantula.

[Mr. Chaverria]

Hrmmmm.

Fascinating.

[DaylightsEnd]

Originally Posted by Yosef Quilty

@DaylightsEnd has previously declared 88 as pretty much always besting Severin, I wonder if with releases like A Blade in the Dark and potentially Murder Rock , we might be able to say the same about VS too.

I feel 88 typically bests Severin in most cases on the uhd platform for two main reasons: 88 has better encoding almost every time; and, 88 actually does clean up the debris and fix a lot of visible damage, whereas Severin often does very little in that regard. Both have very good color correction, good gamma and contrast levels, and both companies are plenty competent at executing a good uhd master when they choose to. There are also 4k releases where 88 and Severin have shared materials among them, and those releases are equally good from either boutique, like Count Dracula and Burial Ground.

A Blade in the Dark is an interesting release. Both 88 and VS put out killer releases, once again proving that 16mm film is awesome on the 4k uhd platform. At that time, VS was consistently putting out uhd releases with pretty boosted/saturated color palettes (their norm), hotter skin tones, and pushed contrast, whereas 88 has always been a bit more conservative in their color palettes. Both releases were technically equal, with the choice coming down to personal preference on their different mastering styles. VS also used a gorgeous, very high-quality 45-degree slash-cut hard box case that is among my favorite packaging of any uhd. This is what I observed at the time between the two releases....

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=45

The PQ between the competing VS and 88 releases of The Amityville Horror 4k uhd are also technically very close. Both are great mastering jobs. Both used the same color palette and saturation. 88 may have the slight advantage in the encode, but if so it's very slight. The real advantage there was 88 using the og audio, not a difference in pq.

I do own both the 88 and VS Murder Rock 4k uhd releases. I watched the VS release and it's pretty phenomenal. I still have to do a direct comparison to the 88 Murder Rock uhd disc. It's pretty high on my to-do list.

[DaylightsEnd]

Originally Posted by Yosef Quilty

They're a very, very new label (like they only have two releases) that specialize in Italian giallo. So far they've done Case of the Bloody Iris and Short Night of Glass Dolls and both have been totally stellar 4K's. Especially in the case of Glass Dolls, which came out at the same time as 88's, it totally took the win, both in encode and color grading which was far more faithful to the original. Someone from CD made a very long, very detailed post in that release's thread about the way they approached grading the film and the reasons for it which really shows that they're taking the time to make each release special. Their next upcoming 4K will be Black Belly of the Tarantula.

Agreed, both of Celluloid Dreams' 4k uhd releases are pretty stellar. I especially love their uhd presentation of Bloody Iris. Both are must-haves for hardcore giallo fans. CD is not horsing around. Very few new startup boutiques come right out of the gate and hit a complicated, expensive-to-produce uhd release totally out of the park like they did. There's a big learning curve with the format, and mistakes can be financially devastating, which 88 learned the hard way on two early releases with botched mastering, but has risen above beautifully and never repeated. Hell, some the major billion-dollar megastudios, and even fairly financially strong boutiques like Kino Lorber with decades of experience, still can't seem to manage to muster consistently-decent encodes, and are still screwing up color palettes, gamma, and contrast in their 4k masters, NINE full YEARS into the uhd format.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of CD's future releases. They have their hearts in the right place, and their heads screws on straight. Just like Indicator/Powerhouse. These are do-right boutiques. Every single uhd title released by Indicator to date has been absolutely top-shelf and wholly definitive in all respects, technically and artistically impeccable. And 88 is starting to forge its name on that block as well, as it continues to gain experience and grow its uhd catalog. I'm pleased that VS has more recently calmed down its color saturation, and has improved their own encodes on the format, as their recent uhd releases of Let's Scare Jessica to Death and Murder Rock are pretty stunning.

[Yosef Quilty]

Originally Posted by DaylightsEnd

I feel 88 typically bests Severin in most cases on the uhd platform for two main reasons: 88 has better encoding almost every time; and, 88 actually does clean up the debris and fix a lot of visible damage, whereas Severin often does very little in that regard. Both have very good color correction, good gamma and contrast levels, and both companies are plenty competent at executing a good uhd master when they choose to. There are also 4k releases where 88 and Severin have shared materials among them, and those releases are equally good from either boutique, like Count Dracula and Burial Ground.

A Blade in the Dark is an interesting release. Both 88 and VS put out killer releases, once again proving that 16mm film is awesome on the 4k uhd platform. At that time, VS was consistently putting out uhd releases with pretty boosted/saturated color palettes (their norm) and pushed contrast, whereas 88 has always been a bit more conservative in their color palettes. Both releases were technically equal, with the choice coming down to personal preference on their different mastering styles. This is what I observed at the time....

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=45

The PQ between the VS and 88 releases of The Amityville Horror 4k uhd are also technically very close. Both are great mastering jobs. 88 may have the slight advantage in the encode, but if so it's very slight. The real advantage there was 88 using the og audio, not a difference in pq.

I do own both the 88 and VS Murder Rock 4k uhd releases. I watched the VS release and it's pretty phenomenal. I still have to do a direct comparison to the 88 Murder Rock uhd disc.

Totally forgot about Amityville, but like you said, seems like another (albeit marginal) 88 win. Would love to hear your Murder Rock thoughts when you get around to spinning the 88, especially since the VS was so good I’m really gonna need some in depth analysis to know which to pickup.

[DaylightsEnd]

I want to clarify that I'm not just slamming on Severin when I do these comparisons. I buy, and keep, all of their 4k uhd releases, and enjoy them. They easily best all prior blu ray releases, and in many respects are very, very good. They stand on their own. Their releases of The Church 4k, the Sect 4k, and Spider Labyrinth 4k, in particular, are excellent. The strict comparisons, though, once you get to the finite details that rule the uhd world, are fairly narrowly governed. Comparing encodes is detail work requiring a decently large high-quality display for best results. Unless an encode is so fatally flawed as to cause noticeable distractions like bad macroblocking, we're getting down to degrees of proficiency, more or less, and many collectors never even look this closely at a uhd in the first place. I'm not trying to pick on any one boutique, but Severin should really consider spending the time and money to implement more debris and damage cleanup in their uhd masters, and up their compression game slightly, to play in the same space that some of their competitors are beginning to dominate in repeatedly. Indicator, for example, uses Fidelity In Motion exclusively for their top-shelf encoding/compression services, which isn't cheap, but is incredibly worth-while. Arrow uses FiM largely as well for their uhd encodes, but on occasions when they don't use FiM, you can always easily tell that the compression could've, and should've, been better, if they'd spent the money on it (Don't Torture a Ducking 4k uhd cough cough).

[Yosef Quilty]

Okay, after doing some slap-dash comparison work, it seems like there might actually be a fairly substantial difference between the two discs, namely in the color grade.

While I don't have either disc, I have been able to find matching(ish) screenshots from both releases.

IMPORTANTLY: These are NOT meant to represent things like encode, these are not proper screenGRABS, just screenSHOTS I've taken from Mondo and the VS site.

VS
VS 1.jpg

88
88 1.jpg

VS
VS 3.jpg

88
88 3.jpg

[Yosef Quilty]

Vs
VS 2.jpg

88
88 2.jpg

[Sleazeaddict]

88 looks warmer, less pink

[Ruined]

Originally Posted by Yosef Quilty

Did a ton of digging in threads and yeah pretty seems to be 88 usually puts out better 4K discs than VS (especially HK stuff like Righting Wrongs, Magic Crystal, Iceman Cometh, etc). Though interestingly, their blu-rays (particularly from the Slasher Classics Collection) are usually worse than VS, so maybe this only applies to 88's 4K's...

@DaylightsEnd has previously declared 88 as pretty much always besting Severin, I wonder if with releases like A Blade in the Dark and potentially Murder Rock , we might be able to say the same about VS too.

(If 88 is better than Severin and VS, it's interesting that so far Celluloid Dreams has bested 88. We could potentially be seeing CD > 88 > Severin/VS)

My own personal opinion is that VS has always been a notch ahead of 88, but recently 88 has dramatically improved their output to put them on par. Severin is a notch below these two, but a lot of that is also because Severin releases unique films that have poor quality source material (including even shot on video stuff) that VS/88 probably wouldn't touch, so Severin's approach is a bit different as a label.

Labels like Celluloid Dreams and Second Sight really can't be compared to VS/88/Severin because their output is so low. It's like I've said before, if you spend 3 months making a paper airplane, it's expected your paper airplane will be more refined than someone who makes one in 3 minutes.

[whysleep]

Originally Posted by Sleazeaddict

88 looks warmer, less pink

It does. Yet, VS has the look that's always been associated with the movie, in past home video releases. Proper caps for comparison would be great. Anyone...?