Denon 4310ci: go 7.1 or biamp main fronts?

[Maggot]

Ok, I'll be the first to say I'm not up on biamping/biwiring. From what little I've read, biwiring is a joke and one will only hear a difference when biamping. Now, from what I've read in my manual, what the Denon 4310ci will do is allow you to use the 4310's surround back amps for I guess what would be called passive biamping of the front mains, especially for when you play stereo music. Which would be the better route, get 2 more speakers and have a 7.1 system, although this may be hard and somewhat useless in my 10x11 ft room OR stay with 5.1 and use the biamp option and possibly get better sound out of the fronts? I have Paradigm studio reference 40's in the front.

[dewd]

Instead of getting into another multipage discussion about bi-amping, I'll just let you know what Alan Loft from Axiom Audio (my speaker company) has to say about it.

Bi-amping, or biamplification, is used mainly in professional sound reinforcement applications, where extremely high levels of loudness are required. Here big, separate amplifiers powering the low frequencies, and smaller amps for the midrange will increase overall output. Sometimes they will use a separate outboard electronic crossover (the speaker's internal crossover is disabled or bypassed entirely) so the operator can vary and adjust individual crossover frequencies, tailor the “slope” of the crossover to match the strengths of each set of drivers, and also adjust the relative sonic balance of bass, midrange and treble to suit the environment. This is important for huge auditoriums or outdoor events where separate arrays of treble and midrange horns are operating with big “bass bins,” but such systems have no place in domestic home theater systems in normal rooms. Additionally, it puts control of the relative smoothness and tonal balance into the hands of the sound system operator, a dangerous tool for all but the most experienced sound reinforcement experts. It also partly explains why the live sound at so many concert events (not all, mind you) is so awful.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/tips_biwir..._biamping.html

IMO, it is pointless.

[CasualKiller]

Not pointless, maybe for Axioms since they are not wired internally to take advantage of it, they state on thier website that they see no benefit of it so they just threw on an extra pair of binding posts to please the "audiophiles".

In most speakers if you have a 100 watt output from the receiver and you single wire you are splitting the power between lows and highs. With a proper internal crossover and bi amping you will instead be supplying 100 watts to each the high end and low end.

For the OP > depends on your listening space, if you can properly setup a 7.1 , go for it, if not a properly set up 5.1 will take out an improperly set up 7.1 any day.

[dewd]

No desire to rehash this again..

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121857

My thoughts are in there somewhere.

Search Google, read other boards, then decide for yourself. I still maintain it is pointless.

[kpkelley]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 4310 has the Audyssey DSX processing with support for wide channels. I would consider employing this processing in a 7.1 setup with five front channels and two side surrounds.

[CasualKiller]

Originally Posted by dewd

No desire to rehash this again..

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121857

My thoughts are in there somewhere.

Search Google, read other boards, then decide for yourself. I still maintain it is pointless.

Not being rude in anyway but yes, with your speakers it is pointless.

[dewd]

Originally Posted by CasualKiller

Not being rude in anyway but yes, with your speakers it is pointless.

Why do I feel like I've just been voted off of American Idol?

[CasualKiller]

That still came off sounding bad, apologies.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Instead of bi-amping or adding 2 more speakers to make your setup a 7.1 system, why not play around with your front speaker placement. I don't know how many diagrams I've seen over the years that explain (suggest) the proper positioning of your front's in a multi-channel steup. A lot of people, and in particular HT novices, take this talk as gospel. They set up their system according to the last diagram they saw and leave everything be. After a while they discover they want something more. Why? Most likely because they aren't satisfied with the sound they are receiving. And this happens more often when people start to use their systems as a 2-channel setup for music listening. They forget that they have tuned their system for a multi-channel movie experience, not music. As such, the same rules don't apply.

Listening to 2-channel music is an entirely different animal and I'm here to tell you that by playing with your front speaker placement, you can get to a level of satisfaction without going the bi-wire or bi-amp route. In fact, proper speaker placement has a much bigger impact than what one would think.

So instead of spending more money, look at your current setup and maximize it....all for FREE!

John

[solarrdadd]

Originally Posted by John72953

Instead of bi-amping or adding 2 more speakers to make your setup a 7.1 system, why not play around with your front speaker placement. I don't know how many diagrams I've seen over the years that explain (suggest) the proper positioning of your front's in a multi-channel steup. A lot of people, and in particular HT novices, take this talk as gospel. They set up their system according to the last diagram they saw and leave everything be. After a while they discover they want something more. Why? Most likely because they aren't satisfied with the sound they are receiving. And this happens more often when people start to use their systems as a 2-channel setup for music listening. They forget that they have tuned their system for a multi-channel movie experience, not music. As such, the same rules don't apply.

Listening to 2-channel music is an entirely different animal and I'm here to tell you that by playing with your front speaker placement, you can get to a level of satisfaction without going the bi-wire or bi-amp route. In fact, proper speaker placement has a much bigger impact than what one would think.

So instead of spending more money, look at your current setup and maximize it....all for FREE!

John

Very well said John, and, you did it without making anyone feel bad in this thread; not that you ever would! Perfect response, and you have spoken the truth about us not experimenting with speaker placement; that could also go into other areas of this HT thing we are all into as well.

[dewd]

Originally Posted by CasualKiller

That still came off sounding bad, apologies.

No worries, I was just having a bit of fun there (I had to laugh because I heard you say that like Simon Cowell).

I am familiar with bi-amping and the benefits if done properly. Bi-amping without control of the crossovers and using one power supply is not beneficial, IMO.

Again, I'm not offended at all. Now my speakers, on the other hand... They want to know where you live.

[Johnny Vinyl]

Originally Posted by solarrdadd

Very well said John, and, you did it without making anyone feel bad in this thread; not that you ever would! Perfect response, and you have spoken the truth about us not experimenting with speaker placement; that could also go into other areas of this HT thing we are all into as well.

Thanks solarrdadd! I wanted to bring the matter up, because I believe it is one of the most overlooked areas of "tweaking" a system. I'll bet you that less than 5% of the members here, or on many other forums, use speaker placement as a tool for maximizing their system's potential. The other 95% come home, use a diagram and leave it at that.

Every speaker has a different sonic signature, every room environment has a different sonic signature, how can one unilaterally thereby accept a "diagram" as fact. Can't be done. But I digress....this thread is about bi-amping.

John

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by CasualKiller

In most speakers if you have a 100 watt output from the receiver and you single wire you are splitting the power between lows and highs. With a proper internal crossover and bi amping you will instead be supplying 100 watts to each the high end and low end.

I believe you are confusing bi-wiring with bi-amping. What you said is correct for connecting two separate 100 watt amplifiers to one speaker. However, as far as bi-wiring is concerned, your statement is in direct violation of the Superposition principle in Physics/Math.

Superposition Principle:
Mathematically, for all linear systems F(x), where x is some sort of input, the superposition (i.e., sum) of the inputs yields a superposition of the individual responses:

F(X1 + X2 ...) = F(X1) + F(x2) + ...

A linear circuit is an electric circuit in which, for a sinusoidal input voltage of a given frequency, any output of the circuit is also sinusoidal with the same frequency.

The law of superposition states that any two voltages applied to a linear network (your crossover) will have the same voltage transfer as if they were applied separately.

To restate the superposition principle: For all linear systems, the net response at a given place caused by two or more stimuli is the sum of the responses which would have been caused by each stimulus individually. So that if input A produces response X and input B produces response Y then input (A + B) produces response (X + Y).

[Johnny Vinyl]

Damn! I wish I wouldn't have read that! I'm out of tylenol!

John

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by John72953

Damn! I wish I wouldn't have read that! I'm out of tylenol!

John

Your Tylenol is on me.

[CasualKiller]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I believe you are confusing bi-wiring with bi-amping. What you said is correct for connecting two separate 100 watt amplifiers to one speaker. However, as far as bi-wiring is concerned, your statement is in direct violation of the Superposition principle in Physics/Math.

Superposition Principle:
Mathematically, for all linear systems F(x), where x is some sort of input, the superposition (i.e., sum) of the inputs yields a superposition of the individual responses:

F(X1 + X2 ...) = F(X1) + F(x2) + ...

A linear circuit is an electric circuit in which, for a sinusoidal input voltage of a given frequency, any output of the circuit is also sinusoidal with the same frequency.

The law of superposition states that any two voltages applied to a linear network (your crossover) will have the same voltage transfer as if they were applied separately.

To restate the superposition principle: For all linear systems, the net response at a given place caused by two or more stimuli is the sum of the responses which would have been caused by each stimulus individually. So that if input A produces response X and input B produces response Y then input (A + B) produces response (X + Y).

Then why is it when I disconnect the bi amp feature in my menu I lose all my low freq's? It's only the tweeter running. With mine set up the way it is (and this is right from our local dealer) is that I am using 1 amp channels 125 watts for my tweeter, and another channel to supply 125 watts to the midbass/woofer giving more detailed high freqs, and more defined low end.

It's even recommended by Monitor Audio...

Where as using 1 channel per speaker and jumpers you are splitting 125 watts to run the tweeter and mid bass / woofer.