Firmware updating methods discussion

[CAB]

Have BD player manufacturers considered distributing firmware updates on optical media using rental shops like Blockbuster, Hollywood or even Netflix? I could see the less geeky in the world paying a buck or two for quick access to updates.

[WickyWoo]

Have BD player manufacturers considered distributing firmware updates on optical media using rental shops like Blockbuster, Hollywood or even Netflix? I could see the less geeky in the world paying a buck or two for quick access to updates.

No, by the time you press them it'll be outdated anyway.

They'll mail you a CD for a few dollars, but it's a lot easier just to burn one. It's not like it's hard.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by WickyWoo

No, by the time you press them it'll be outdated anyway.

They'll mail you a CD for a few dollars, but it's a lot easier just to burn one. It's not like it's hard.

I realize it isn't rocket surgery for a person like me. Again - the less geeky among us or those that don't have a DVD writer with the appropriate software within reach. Waiting weeks for the mail isn't ideal.

btw, my Pop's S1 doesn't read CDs so it HAS to be a DVD.

[patrick99]

Originally Posted by CAB

I realize it isn't rocket surgery for a person like me. Again - the less geeky among us or those that don't have a DVD writer with the appropriate software within reach. Waiting weeks for the mail isn't ideal.

btw, my Pop's S1 doesn't read CDs so it HAS to be a DVD.

I downloaded Nero on a trial basis and was able to use it to burn a CD for a Samsung update before getting a PS3, but I would not have wanted to pay for that software just to burn update CDs.

[WickyWoo]

I realize it isn't rocket surgery for a person like me. Again - the less geeky among us or those that don't have a DVD writer with the appropriate software within reach. Waiting weeks for the mail isn't ideal.

DVD-Rs have been standard for years, and you can pick one up for as little as $25.

you just toss the file on a disc and burn

Golden, it's for people like that that you have the $5 sendout service

[L or S of Perfect?]

The best way is to include all the firmware updates on the blu-rays themselves.

[mattym]

Originally Posted by L or S of Perfect?

The best way is to include all the firmware updates on the blu-rays themselves.

would work well if its a small file and one file fits each manufacturer group, but if you have to have 13 different firmwares it gets a bit.....complex

[L or S of Perfect?]

Originally Posted by mattym

would work well if its a small file and one file fits each manufacturer group, but if you have to have 13 different firmwares it gets a bit.....complex

It's still a far better solution than having people burn firmware onto dvds, connecting up their players to ethernet ports, etc. With every new movie pressed, just include the latest firmwares on the movies themselves. People can either choose an option on the movie's main menu to search for firmware update or they can program it so the player will detect it immediately.

Yeah, having multiple firmwares on a single disk could be a pain for programmers, but at least the firmware files themselves shouldn't be too big, and they only have to figure out how to program it once.. I know its possible because PS3 games already do this. Pop in disk, "Do you wish to update to Firmware x.x?", yes/no. Not even J6P can f^ck this up.

[Tekman]

Originally Posted by mattym

would work well if its a small file and one file fits each manufacturer group, but if you have to have 13 different firmwares it gets a bit.....complex

I would think the best way would be to add a USB port/card reader to all players. You downloa the file to a USB stick or SD card insert it to the player go to menu find the update option and click.

The PS3 has this option already.

[RickD]

Originally Posted by L or S of Perfect?

The best way is to include all the firmware updates on the blu-rays themselves.

Haha, like Samsung would have a firmware update done before the disc is pressed. It takes them days to weeks even after a movie is released.

Rick

[mattym]

Originally Posted by L or S of Perfect?

It's still a far better solution than having people burn firmware onto dvds, connecting up their players to ethernet ports, etc. With every new movie pressed, just include the latest firmwares on the movies themselves. People can either choose an option on the movie's main menu to search for firmware update or they can program it so the player will detect it immediately.

Yeah, having multiple firmwares on a single disk could be a pain for programmers, but at least the firmware files themselves shouldn't be too big, and they only have to figure out how to program it once.. I know its possible because PS3 games already do this. Pop in disk, "Do you wish to update to Firmware x.x?", yes/no. Not even J6P can f^ck this up.

the theory is good, if it can made to work then it would be worth a go

whats the average firmware size?

sorry for OT but there isnt another thread yet, this is an interesting subject!

[L or S of Perfect?]

Originally Posted by mattym

the theory is good, if it can made to work then it would be worth a go

whats the average firmware size?

sorry for OT but there isnt another thread yet, this is an interesting subject!

Well, I was hoping for comment from paid.

Firmware size can't be too large, as I doubt these players have a great deal of memory, with the exception of the ps3. When I did a firmware update for my receiver, it was only 1MB. Even if it was 50MB for each of the 13 players you mentioned, it would be .65GB. If it's a movie that would use the full disk space available, they could leave the firmwares off of that particular movie. The cost effective way might be to just bundle a CD-R with all the firmware updates.

So instead of including those worthless cards telling you "you may need to update your firmware", why not just include the update themselves. It would greatly help the J6Ps.

[kjack]

Originally Posted by L or S of Perfect?

The best way is to include all the firmware updates on the blu-rays themselves.

I proposed this at one of the BDA meetings a long time ago and it got shot down. There is a mechanism to convey to a user where to get a firmware update and how to do it.

[quetzalcoatl]

Originally Posted by kjack

I proposed this at one of the BDA meetings a long time ago and it got shot down. There is a mechanism to convey to a user where to get a firmware update and how to do it.

The best way to do it then seems to be to make it like a windows update. You put in a disc it checks the FW for you and then goes to the site and does a DL. Now of course that means everyone needs to be working together and have it ready and that might be the hardest part.

[Bombthroat]

Originally Posted by L or S of Perfect?

It's still a far better solution than having people burn firmware onto dvds, connecting up their players to ethernet ports, etc. With every new movie pressed, just include the latest firmwares on the movies themselves. People can either choose an option on the movie's main menu to search for firmware update or they can program it so the player will detect it immediately.

Yeah, having multiple firmwares on a single disk could be a pain for programmers, but at least the firmware files themselves shouldn't be too big, and they only have to figure out how to program it once.. I know its possible because PS3 games already do this. Pop in disk, "Do you wish to update to Firmware x.x?", yes/no. Not even J6P can f^ck this up.

The biggest problem I see there is when a disc is pressed, it has a snapshot in time of a particular firmware. To that end, you'd have to buy a "new release" just to get the latest firmware.

Also, while there are only a small number of players on the market today it doesn't amount to a lot of space usage. But think of the day when every manufacturer will have player after player over the course of the next 10 - 15 years. It could take a BD50 to cover every single player with it latest firmware. And at what point do you draw the line and say enough is enough? I mean, really, I don't want a single bit (literally) of information that is taking space away from being able to have the highest quality PQ/AQ possible. So called "extras" already take away valuable space. I'd like to see movies released as a SuperBit Blu-ray for those of us who's only concern is the highest PQ/AQ available.

Ah, maybe someday.

[L or S of Perfect?]

Originally Posted by Bombthroat

The biggest problem I see there is when a disc is pressed, it has a snapshot in time of a particular firmware. To that end, you'd have to buy a "new release" just to get the latest firmware.

Also, while there are only a small number of players on the market today it doesn't amount to a lot of space usage. But think of the day when every manufacturer will have player after player over the course of the next 10 - 15 years. It could take a BD50 to cover every single player with it latest firmware. And at what point do you draw the line and say enough is enough? I mean, really, I don't want a single bit (literally) of information that is taking space away from being able to have the highest quality PQ/AQ possible. So called "extras" already take away valuable space. I'd like to see movies released as a SuperBit Blu-ray for those of us who's only concern is the highest PQ/AQ available.

Ah, maybe someday.

Any comment from any insiders regarding getting SuperBit Blu-ray releases? Or other members interest in SuperBit Blu-ray releases?

True. Also our friend amirm makes a good point regarding this issue.

Originally Posted by AmirM
In theory, yes. In practice, never!

There are both technical and business problems with the latter much bigger.

On the technical front, how does one keep revisions for every player out there? What happens in the future? The firmware would get old really quick and would have no way of accomodating players coming out after the disc is published.

But the real issue is that of business. If user puts the disc in and the player locks up and requires a visit to service center, who has to pay for it? The content owner?

What if the firmware for a device violates some other product's patents? Is the content owner now liable for distributing said patent because they benefit from it somehow (i.e. players their movie)?

The lawyers would put a stop to such a thought well before any engineer does.

[Bombthroat]

^^^

At any rate, I think we are in agreement that it seems like a good idea when it is the first fleeting thought, but after some analysis doesn't hold up.

[jon s]

it is not feasible to include CDs or the firmwares on the disc themselves. There are too many players out there and you cannot expect the studio to include firmwares for all of them or bother to look for all the firmware updates. Some of the ideas here are getting a bit far fetched.

[Papi4baby]

Originally Posted by jon s

it is not feasible to include CDs or the firmwares on the disc themselves. There are too many players out there and you cannot expect the studio to include firmwares for all of them or bother to look for all the firmware updates. Some of the ideas here are getting a bit far fetched.

Your kidding right? I can see once BD is used widely that it might be an issue. But really there's like a handfull of BD players. It is not that difficult i tell you. It is not. Why they chose not to do it, oh well i personally believe that's a mistake. As it is something that the Playstation 3 and PSP have got an upper hand on. If there's a newer firmware it will be put on the disc, upon disc play it will ask if you wish to update the firmware.

Im guessing here, but with the current amount of player i guess what 1 to 2 gigs total for all player FW. We have 50GB for Christ sakes.

[LynxFX]

I agree, it shouldn't be that hard. There could be one central group, say the BDA that maintains a single file 'package' that contains all the current firmwares for each BD player out there. When a CE company creates a new firmware they send it to this group to replace their old one in the 'package'. Whenever a new software title is heading to replication they grab the latest firmware 'package' and they are done. If an urgent firmware release is needed the CE companies can still offer the traditional download from their website but otherwise it will also show up on the next round of software titles.

I really hate this chicken and egg mentality from the hardware manufacturers and studios. We had it bad enough with DVD in the early days with some titles not being able to play on 1st and 2nd gen players or only certain players. Disney put out a few of those titles if I remember correctly. And back then you were just screwed if the disc didn't work. Now we can update the firmware as the technology matures it would be nice if both the hardware and software creators work together. Afterall without hardware there is nothing for the software to play on, and without software the hardware is a paper weight.