UG! Since when did H.D.-D.V.D. start using BLUE lasers?

[X400]

i think dual layer dvd burners use a blue laser too dont they? doesnt mean squat

[JadedRaverLA]

Here's a little history lesson for those who care. There's a lot of mis-information out there about both formats and how this format war came about. This is the real story... as best as I can tell. If there are errors, hopefully an insider can correct me.

Back in 2003, Sony and Matsushita (Panasonic) released BD-RE 1.0 recorders and discs in Japan. Those discs stored a little over 23 GB per layer and used discs that were encased in cartridges. They (primarily Sony) had been working on Blue-violet laser technology for quite awhile, initially using the technology for the UDO (Ultra Density Optical) magneto-optical discs first announced back in 2000.

Toshiba was, at the same time, working with Warner Brothers and some other partners on an HD version of existing DVDs. The idea was to use existing DVD discs, but storing 720p video using a more advanced codec (AVC or VC-1). This would have a few advantages over any competing solution. For one, drive mechanisms and disc pressing would not need to be changed for the new system. For Toshiba this also meant that all of the royalties they were making on the DVD spec would continue rolling in.

Sony and Matsushita submitted their new format to the DVD Forum, but Toshiba and a few other partners blocked the proposal, mainly because Toshiba wanted the discs to be able to be produced on existing lines... which the Sony/Matsushita discs certainly could not.

Toshiba and their partners then went and took the Blue-violet laser technology and merged it with existing DVD structure. This new spec, called AOD (advanced optical disc) is the disc structure that is now used in HD DVDs. The discs weren't as advanced as the competing BD-RE discs but they could be produced on some existing DVD lines... albeit, only after modifications. The discs place the data in approximately the center layer of the disc (the same location as existing DVDs), which made the discs easier to produce, but kept the capacity considerably lower than the BD-RE discs, which placed the data very near the bottom of the disc.

TDK developed a special coating that they found could be applied to the BD-RE media, protecting the discs without the need for the cartridges that had been used. The existing BD-RE spec was redubbed PDD (professional data disc) and continues to be used in various professional applications such as Sony's XDCAM camcorders. The PDDs cost more than the newer cartrdge-less BD-RE media, but they are designed for faster reading and writing... which is important when you are recording a master.

So, now there were two competing formats... both using blue-violet lasers, and both designed to play at 1080p. Toshiba continued to insist that the new discs be able to be manufactured on existing lines, and Sony and Matsushita refused, as they considered their new disc structure superior, both in terms of data storage and in terms of recordability. Toshiba had trouble convincing other CE companies to back their format, but they gained a huge ally in Microsoft, when the BDA decided to use Java for interactivity instead of Microsoft's competing HDi system.

Toshiba, with their new ally, proposed their format as the official next generation version of the DVD format. At first, it too failed to gain acceptance within the DVD Forum. But Toshiba and their allies got the rules of the forum changed and got a few new pro-HD DVD companies on board as voting members. With the new stacked deck, they were able to get their format approved.

Some work was done behind the scenes to attempt to prevent a format war, but on the issue of disc structure no one was willing to budge. As the initial version of BD-RE came out way back in 2003, it seemed likely that Blu-ray would launch first, and thus gain a foothold in the marketplace. But Microsoft's assistance allowed Toshiba to get HD DVD players developed in record time, though the first models were essentially full-fledged PCs with HD DVD drives.

Problems getting disc lines up and running, as well as delays and shortages on blue laser diodes kept Blu-ray from launching on time. When it eventually did launch, firmware problems on the first player released, as well as less than stellar transfers of early BD titles allowed HD DVD to gain a following and essentially offered it a 9 month head start.

That all changed in November, 2006, however, when the long-delayed PS3 finally hit shelves. Over night, hundreds of thousands of Blu-ray players were suddenly in people's homes. Within a few weeks of that release, many more Blu-ray players hit stores, and the format started to decimate HD DVD in the movie sales numbers.

All that was a year ago... and honestly not much has changed since then. A few companies have changed allegiances, but overall Blu-ray movies still outsell HD DVD movies every week by approximately 2:1. Hopefully, something big will happen soon to end this war, but for now, that's where we are and how we got here.

[gand41f]

HD-DVD tries so hard to confuse people. Red cases and blue lasers. Ugh.

The "compatible with DVD" thing is going way too far.

enjoy
gandalf

[Fozziwig]

I made a film called 'Star Rabbits' - many years ago - and it had to feature white lasers 'cos the only way to get the effect was to physically scratch the emulsion off the film. And with a Super 8 frame I can tell you that is NOT easy!

As for these new fangled HD formats I believe they both use multi-colour lasers (so, in a way, you're all right). It's basically a 40w lightbulb with a magnifying glass (the basis for all laser technology). In front of that is a rotating colour wheel that creates some really neat effects. Try taking the cover of your HD player while it's running. It's like a miniature disco in there!

Hint: The first paragraph is actually true!

[The Don]

yeah...they both use blue...

anyone who is interested in this sort of thing (lasers etc.) should know this...

[The Don]

oh umm...

SHARKS WITH BLU FRIKKIN LASER BEAMS....

IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK?

[Teazle]

Originally Posted by AlexKx

...and you all wonder how any format is suppose to win this war when it is so difficult to understand! I DO understand but it's quite a bit to get across to someone to PROVE the difference and significance of Blu-Ray. Does that not make sense what I'm saying? I have President Bush communication skills so there you go.

I think the name "Blu-ray" was meant to distinguish the format from DVD, which uses a red laser. That's the intended contrast, not with HD-DVD.

[mastertang]

HDDUD uses a blue laser on an old DVD reader arm system. It follows the same path and burns smaller pits, but this results in space between the cylindrical data on the disk. Blu uses that extra space to achieve greater storage, packing the data in making the best use of available space. It does this using a newer reading system that is more precise.

Plus HDDVD uses the one-two layer switch on the old DVD arm for its layers. That's why a theoretical 51 (lol) GB disk will not play on the first gen HDDVD systems. Blu may achieve 200 GB thanks to that new reading system, because the mechanism can be reprogrammed to stop on layers that have not been created for commercial use yet.

HDDVD is like taking a motor out of a Impala, dropping it into a Corvette, and telling people its pretty much the same thing.

Anyone feel free to point out any mistakes, this is just a rant on information I have come across since this mess began.

[Phane]

Both formats use the Blue laser. Without a blue laser's shorter wavelength, you can't get the precision required to read the newer discs in either format. HD VMD uses the red laser, thus it still can only get 5 GB per layer. It gets it's increased capacity by adding more layers (up to 20) to the old red-laser DVD discs. No one considers HD VMD a serious contender in the format war, though.

[monkyman]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

Here's a little history lesson for those who care. There's a lot of mis-information out there about both formats and how this format war came about.

Very informative and thanks for takeing the time to write that up.

[sleazypig]

Originally Posted by AlexKx

Help me! I've been discuing the whole Blu-Ray/H.D.-D.V.D. fiasco format war with someone and I made the claim that H.D.-D.V.D. will not be able to hold as much storage space because it uses a RED laser. I have since been told it uses a BLUE laser and when I look at the unreliable website of Wikipedia it says that H.D.-D.V.D. uses a blue laser. What the hell? I thought the whole point of Blu-Ray being able to store more on it is because it uses a BLUE laser while no other format does?! Am I off my rocker and on the floor again?!

Hd Dvd uses the blue laser but it uses the same disc structure as standard dvd. This is why the old Dvd forum backs them and allows them to use Dvd in their name. Blu-ray has a thicker structure allowing Blu-ray discs to hokd more. This however makes the players cost more.

[joeorc]

Originally Posted by AlexKx

WHHHAAATT???!!! So now I WAS right I just haven't been updated?! When was this and when did it change? Wow! PLEASE don't leave me hanging on that one if you don't mind HeavyHitter!

early 2003 before it was submitted to the HD DVD forum ,so yes at first it was a red laser format than switched to blue laser.,This time Toshiba AND Nec submitted the new HD DVD AOD format that used a Blue laser like Blu-Ray but with lower Disc storage requirements.....thus a lesser clone to Blu-Ray..the first to the market with working drives being sold to the consumer between both formats was Blu-Ray. only in the Movie format dynamic did HD DVD get released player's first.

but for the format it self Blu-Ray is the older Fomat but yet physicaly a better format over HD DVD....

[invictus]

The color of the laser actually does matter. As the color is related to wavelength which is inversely proportionate to frequency. Frequency effects the amount of data to be transmitted(in a basic setup).

Red lasers are better suited for signal strength, but they lack frequency, as they are at the opposite end of the spectrum from blue. ie Roy G Biv (which is the color of the rainbows: red orange yellow green blue indigo violet)

[Neo65]

The main difference is the organization of the "pits" and how bits are represented on the physical media. The HDDVD method is basically a rehash of the old DVD organization. The new method increases storage density dramatically. As a consideration, the BD layer has substantially more headroom, capable of 33GB/layer in the labs while the HD DVD can at most go from 15 to 17GB in one layer.

The realities of manufacturing needs though, made the current gen of HD DVD pick 15GB/layer while BD chose 25GB/layer to increase their manufacturing yield.

BD also required a more complex focusing mechanism for the laser pickup and had an initial cost disadvantage with hd dvd that is only now being overcome.

In terms of basic storage technology, the closest thing I can think of was the use of V.34 vs v.90 dial up modem standards, where everything is similar, but the actual arrangement of bits were much more complex on v.90.

The more you look at the technology, the bigger the difference. This is primarily the reason why AOD (HD DVD) is a technically inferior technology. Their advantage of course is costs, but at this time, with the rampup of the BD manufacturing, the HD DVD earlier manufacturing advantage is no longer material. Which is why we no longer hear this train of discussion anymore --- that whole chapter appears to have been ripped out of the HD DVD playbook and discarded.

[Kirsty_Mc]

Hiya,

Both BD and HD-DVD use the Blue-Violet laser of the same wavelength. BD just makes better use of it (read earlier posts).

A possible reason for confusion is another HDM format (HD-VMD) which uses a red laser. HD-VMD is in even a worse market position than HD-DVD and lately was touted as a format for the developing world.

[Anthony P]

HD DVD has always been blue laser like BD. The difference is that like DVD HD DVD holds the data 1/2 way through the disk (.6mm) while BD holds it close to the surface (.1mm) a–and for completeness CD had it at the other end at .1.2mm which also gave the thickness of the disk.

Light (CD was IR, DVD was red and BD/HD DVD is blue) passes through the disk to reach the data layer. Since it passes through the plastic it gets slightly distorted and the deeper it goes the more it can get distorted. To remedy that fact of physics HD DVD needs larger pits then BD, so the disk ends up having less of them and that is where the capacity issue comes into play.

Since HD DVD (like DVD) has the data layer at .6mm the way they are produced is as two 1/2 disks glued back to back. So the technique of making HD DVDs is almost the same as DVD and is why HD DVD are now cheaper to produce and why they talk about DVD lines (the recipe/HW needs tweaking to HD DVD but it does mostly the same stuff)

As for red laser, it was never HD DVD (i.e. accepted by the DVD forum and named that way). Toshiba earlier on was proposing a DVD with better CODECs, but it never did become HD DVD

One last note. All of that is true for BD-25+ and HD DVD-15+. Both BD and HD DVD have in the spec what is respectively called BD-9 and HD DVD-9 that is BD/HD DVD content (menus, CODECs, encryption…) but on a normal DVD. Studios could use them if they want and so can you with a DVD writer and the right SW.

[Anthony P]

Toshiba continued to insist that the new discs be able to be manufactured on existing lines

I think it has more to do with patents they hold on .6mm disk technology (like you said, their initial plan was to submit a DVD with new CODECs) then kindness towards replicators.

[JadedRaverLA]

Originally Posted by Anthony P

I think it has more to do with patents they hold on .6mm disk technology (like you said, their initial plan was to submit a DVD with new CODECs) then kindness towards replicators.

Correct. Which is WHY they wanted them manufactured on existing lines -- no kindness really involved.

[Musashi]

Both use blue lasers, but since the data on a blu-ray disc is closer to the surface (farther from the label), there is less light refraction after the laser finds the data layers. Less refraction means smaller data points, thus kore of them fit on the disc.

[bajor27]

Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA

Here's a little history lesson for those who care.

That was a great read. Thanks for posting.

And yes, as most everyone has already pointed out, HD-DVD uses a blue laser