Multi Channel Analogue vs. hdmi

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Funky54

My decoder, (the Outlaw 950) has the switch (The one I was bumping with the main's tri wires) that goes from analog bass management "on" or "off" Thats the one I flipped to "On" It sounds great with movies. I have not tried a CD yet. In true analog 6 channel bypass mode, what is it doing? Am I getting full range to all speakers with a multichannel recording and bass sent to the sub? How does that work? Will it change when I start to use a turntable and a seperate input and "NOT" the 6 channel bypass anymore?

My speakers are all set in the blue ray player to large and volume of high and low is set to high. the decoder(950) has them all set to large, but the cross overs I set the center and surrounds to 80hz and the mains to 40hz...but i understand that in "large" in the decoder it just sends full signal anyway ot the mains. the sub.. with "analog bass management" set to "on". my trims are all at 2 and the surrounds are boosted to 3 with the sub boosted to 5..that sound reasonable? all the feet or distance settings are set as well.

If you check in your Outlaw 950's Instructions Manual, it should be indicated.

[Funky54]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

If you check in your Outlaw 950's Instructions Manual, it should be indicated.

Its a bit vauge to my newb eyes. It tells you how to change setting but little info as to what those setting do. I'm just happy the trim and room calibrations work. What a difference!

You guys were talking about the differences in music to movies... I'm a newb to HT and better quality gear, but my ears are not new to good sound.

What a HT system wants and what a good music system wants are not the same thing. Most of the good music thats classic to use all, is recorded in two channel. It sounds best (usually) in two channel. While some smaller reference speakers may need the sub for some bass, larger towers most likely do not. The bass is different between movie and music. Theater is way deeper and far less articulate. Its compressed and specific from the get go. Moving air for an explosion is different than hearing music.

My Alon towers are awesome for music...ok for movies, but lack the KABOOM of a sub. I was asking about the analog bass management cause now when I want stereo, I do not want the sub. I want the Alons 12's to do music. The sub would ruin it.

The frequencies of movies is different then the frquencies in the soundscape of music. Where it sits in the mix. To me music should sound live. Your goal should be to close your eyes and think those musicians are sitting in the room with you. Thats a bit unrealistic for movies in my opinion.

[LordoftheRings]

Hi Funky,

I pretty much agree with what you're saying. You are right that most Music was recorded in two channels using the proper gear with mixing consoles and all. A well recorded two-channel audio media (CD, SACD, ...) would already contain the space of the studio or the live club or any other venue where that recording was made, mixed, massaged, and edited. And the mics used are very important.
...And I know a thing or two as I am a musician myself...

For Movies you're also right, but with now one little difference: recording/mixing studio or Theater sound engineers now can give us that full High Resolution Audio they have been listening to for many years right here in our own rooms! ...Thanks to Blu-ray and other High Res audio mediums.
The audio soundtracks (the musical ones played by the musicians; orchestral works and all) now have that true resonnance and real impact!

As for the lower audio frequencies and subwoofer(s), Integration is the key magic word here, so is Balance.
And this my friend is still work in progress ... For them (the pro mixers) and us, in our own rooms!

Tomorrow is yet to come, and the best with it!

Cheers,
Bob

[cooljera]

I chose Analogue!

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by cooljera

I chose Analogue!

Me too, I'm still an Analogue Man!

[Big Daddy]

If bass management and room equalization is good for movies, it is definitely good for music (2 channel or multi-channel SACD/DVD-A). Your equipment, speakers, and room do not understand movies or music. They only deal with frequencies and screw them up to the best of their ability. You need bass management, room treatment, and equalization for all rooms and equipment under all situations (2 channel music, multi-channel music, movies).

Any distinction between music and movies is totally meaningless and absurd. If you think that music is somehow pure and the movie soundtrack is impure, you really need to do some reading and understand how different frequencies interact with the room boundaries and contents differently. Sound is not about music or movies. Sound consists of audio frequencies.

The most leading authority in the field of audio research is Dr. Floyd Toole, formerly of the National Research Council of Canada and recently the Vice President of Audio Research at Harman International. These are a few quotes from him:

http://www.sonicdesign.se/tooleinw.htm

The idea that two-channel stereo is somehow more "pure" than multichannel audio is misguided. In spite of some examples of very bad taste in the days of quadraphonic audio, and now, the benefits are there, and gradually recording engineers will learn how to use the new medium. It is the better solution. However, I feel that more than five channels are needed. I live with the Logic 7 system in its 7-channel mode, and I cannot now go back to 5.1. The sense of envelopment and space is much more realistic with the additional channels (two sides and two rears), and it remains so even when you turn your head or move around the room. Remember, multichannel audio is a social experience - more than one person can enjoy it.

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...nf-rooms_1.pdf

In music recording, it is assumed that all monitoring will be done with conventional forward firing systems in all five locations. But what of the persistent assertion that some speakers are better for movies than they are for music? The implication often is that we can get away with less ‘refined’ sound in movies than we can in music. But . . . there is music in movies – sometimes a lot of it. Sometimes, as in a concert video, the music is the entire point of the production. The assertion is silly. Good sound is good sound, whether it is in movies or music -only performances. The only special considerations for film sound are maximum loudness and power handling. In films, things occasionally can get very loud, especially in the low bass.

[Funky54]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

If bass management and room equalization is good for movies, it is definitely good for music (2 channel or multi-channel SACD/DVD-A). Your equipment, speakers, and room do not understand movies or music. They only deal with frequencies and screw them up to the best of their ability. You need bass management, room treatment, and equalization for all rooms and equipment under all situations (2 channel music, multi-channel music, movies).

Any distinction between music and movies is totally meaningless and absurd. If you think that music is somehow pure and the movie soundtrack is impure, you really need to do some reading and understand how different frequencies interact with the room boundaries and contents differently. Sound is not about music or movies. Sound consists of audio frequencies.

The most leading authority in the field of audio research is Dr. Floyd Toole, formerly of the National Research Council of Canada and recently the Vice President of Audio Research at Harman International. These are a few quotes from him:

http://www.sonicdesign.se/tooleinw.htm


http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/...nf-rooms_1.pdf

Thanks for that. I read it and went to the links. Pretty interesting. I hope my comment wasn't something negative. I still think that the frequencies needed to create most music doesn’t go as deep as theater. A bass guitar and 22" bass drum are not really hitting in the same frequencies being used to move lots of air to make you feel something like a rumble from an explosion or a dinosaur walking in a movie. I was trying to suggest that my towers do a better job of making sounds that sound…well real. My sub is a blunt instrument tuned to hit around 23 25 hz. I set the crossover so it’s only picking up at around 40 or 50. I did that cause my Alons hit down to 29 and there are two of them with 12” drivers..I was thinking in my situation it would be better for the two 12” towers to make the musical sounds. Most of my music (classic rock, big band and soul) is gonna be in the upper bass regions that the Alons will do a better quality job of reproducing than my sub. I assume most of or all of this is recorded originally in stereo anyway) Do I have anywhere near to a close Idea? Or is my thinking bobo?

[LordoftheRings]

I don't agree at all with you Big Daddy regarding Music 2-channel Stereo vs. Multichannel Movies listening.

Two speakers and five, or seven or nine or eleven speakers, in a room are TOTALLY different in their overall ACOUSTICS and Sound Reproduction properties!

...And even more so when Subwoofer(s) and Bass Management is involved.

EDIT: I simply 100% disagree here with you!

Perhaps you are happy yourself personally, and don't see or hear any differences, but that is only your own opinion!
And it certainly ain't mine at all!

*** I had real life experience with this, plus information from professional articles that support my reasoning. The best articles I have on this are not accessible online for FREE!
...One of them is from Richard Hardesty, a professional audio ex-writer from Widescreen Review now having his own Ultra High-End mag, which is quite expensive to get a subscription to.

It would be quite extensive for me here to transcribe all the important elements on this subject. That would require a lot of texts, time to type it and right now I'm simply not in that state of mind.
...But one day, I'll do it! Or more like a week or so to complete a thoroughly set of explanations.

This is my own opinion based on real facts and the different methods to record and reproduce 2-channel Stereo Music versus Multichannel Audio soundtracks from Movies. ...And the Room Acoustics involved in these two very different Sound reproduction.

Best regards,
Bob

[Funky54]

What I got form the article tha Big daddy was kind enough to post was that its all important. Good reproduction of data is good reproduction of data. Frequency is frequency. I think most recorded music is in stereo and leans to narrower amounts of frequencies than movies. Its like the difference of four 10" speakers in a tube amp vs two 12's, or a four 12 cab vs a 2 / 12.

With bass guitar, 10's sound very different from a 15..but both can be reproducing the same frequencies. One may depending on construction sound far tighter and specific, yet at the same time another may be moving a lot more air. You set a meter infront of a 4 10 hartke cab and then play a single 15 at the same volume...you hear the 15..but you feel the 4 10, its just moving so much more air. Same Idea I think.

[LordoftheRings]

Yeah but our rooms influence the way this data is recorded.
The sound reproduction is another ball game in each and every room!

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

I don't agree at all with you Big Daddy regarding Music 2-channel Stereo vs. Multichannel Movies listening.

Two speakers and five, or seven or nine or eleven speakers, in a room are TOTALLY different in their overall ACOUSTICS and Sound Reproduction properties!

...And even more so when Subwoofer(s) and Bass Management is involved.

You are 100% WRONG in your statement here just above!

Perhaps you are happy yourself personally, and don't see or hear any differences, but that is only your own opinion!
And it certainly ain't mine at all!

*** I had real life experience with this, plus information from professional articles that support my reasoning. The best articles I have on this are not accessible online for FREE!
...One of them is from Richard Hardesty, a professional audio ex-writer from Widescreen Review now having his own Ultra High-End mag, which is quite expensive to get a subscription to.

It would be quite extensive for me here to transcribe all the important elements on this subject. That would require a lot of texts, time to type it and right now I'm simply not in that state of mind.
...But one day, I'll do it! Or more like a week or so to complete a thoroughly set of explanations.

This is my own opinion based on real facts and the different methods to record and reproduce 2-channel Stereo Music versus Multichannel Audio soundtracks from Movies. ...And the Room Acoustics involved in these two very different Sound reproduction.

Bob - I have to say Big Daddy has made a rather clear and convincing case that bass management and room correction apply equally to music and movies and to stereo and multichannel audio. Your response here seems limited to an unexplained and unsupported statement of personal opinion.

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Bob - I have to say Big Daddy has made a rather clear and convincing case that bass management and room correction apply equally to music and movies and to stereo and multichannel audio. Your response here seems limited to an unexplained and unsupported statement of personal opinion.

You're right BIslander, I was simply stating my own personal opinion.
This is my preference in my own room. And it is not right for some other people, and if Big Daddy is happy with his own setup for both music and movies, good. But in my case, and the case of many of my friends, sorry, it just don't cut it!

There is no real laws or standards about this; it has much to do with one's own setup and gear. Movies & Music are recorded differently, and I personally don't like my music to be digitally DSP massaged, that's all.
And yes, I did try it several times before, and I explored several different settings. ...I just didn't find the right one yet.
Or rather "si", the "Pure Audio" mode works fine for me when listening to 2-channel Stereo Music, or Multichannel Music from SACDs.
(With all my speakers playing Full Range.)

Proper Subwoofer Integration with your two front mains is not an easy job at all. I am a true Music lover, and I just know what sounds right with Music.
{For two-channel Stereo Music listening, you simply CANNOT integrate a subwoofer properly if the sub driver diameter is a larger one than 12"; more so if the woofers in your loudspeakers are only 7" diameter or smaller. Furthermore you NEED TWO Subwoofers.}

What works for Movies does not work for Music! ...Unless you are listening to Heavy Metal, Rap, Bad Rock & Pop music, and all that junk out there! ...With heavily compressed dynamics! ...And boosted Bass that is bloated! ...And simply no life at all!

With Movies, I don't care, it's a "show" thing. What I truly like with Movies is Orchestral Music audio soundtracks. ...And good quality recordings from smaller ensembles as well; chamber music, like a solo guitar, or cello, or violin, or piano, or sexophone, ... But no subwoofer is needed here, unless your speakers are not up to par.

And for explosions and shut guns and all those sound effects, it's fine, I'm good with it.

Hope that clarifys it.

And I apologize if one's feel that I came too strong from my above reply to Big Daddy, including him. I luv him, and I fully respect him.
* With my very best friends sometimes we totally disagree on certain things of life, but we still luv each other. ...And even more so, for our strong beliefs. It ain't a question of who's right or wrong, it's only life with all the people in it.

No bad intended to anyone here, just a simple opinion, but firm nonetheless.

Bests to all,
Bob

P.S. After rereading my above reply to Big Daddy, I admit that I was very direct, and did not come across the way I would have luv to, so I edited one line, the one with the word "wrong" in it, as it was the wrong word to use. And for that, I feel sorry. Please forgive me Big Daddy.
It was not my true state of mind and was not truly directed towards you, but my own emotional distress.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

You're right BIslander, I was simply stating my own personal opinion.
This is my preference in my own room. And it is not right for some other people, and if Big Daddy is happy with his own setup for both music and movies, good. But in my case, and the case of many of my friends, sorry, it just don't cut it!

Here's the thing: I don't see how this is a matter of personal preference. And, I think that was Big Daddy's point.

I'll go back to the question I asked several days ago - what's different about movies and music that would make bass management appropriate for one but not the other? And why is bass management OK for multichannel but not for stereo? Plus, I would hardly call bass management "digital DSP massaging". I suppose room correction would qualify for that label, although it's more pergorative than descriptive.

I certainly won't question your criticism of your own set-up. But a bad home set-up doesn't support the conclusion that bass management is bad for music or for stereo.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by BIslander

Here's the thing: I don't see how this is a matter of personal preference. And, I think that was Big Daddy's point.

I'll go back to the question I asked several days ago - what's different about movies and music that would make bass management appropriate for one but not the other? And why is bass management OK for multichannel but not for stereo? Plus, I would hardly call bass management "digital DSP massaging". I suppose room correction would qualify for that label, although it's more pergorative than descriptive.

I certainly won't question your criticism of your own set-up. But a bad home set-up doesn't support the conclusion that bass management is bad for music or for stereo.

I agree with BIslander one hundred percent. I did not mention anything about my equipment, my home theater, or my own preference. I simply made a statement that bass management, room treatment, and equalization apply equally to both music and movies. I made my point based on scientific principles and not based on personal preference.

[Big Daddy]

Some more quotes from Dr. Toole.

Book: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms, by Floyd Toole

I believe this is a good example of how the history of bad EQing (because of wrong or inadequate equipment and wrong methods applied to situations has lead to people believing that EQing is bad and has no place in a high end system). Remember Richard (Coytee) mentioned how I had found and corrected a problem room mode that clearly was noticable at many locations in the room. At the time we were comparing some extreme slope networks on his Khorns and solving this problem had a very dramatic improvement in clarity and tonality IMO versus what was felt to be just a slight difference in sound due to the networks (to give some indications of the difference we were hearing) but because people have insisted you can't EQ room problems I believe he has had doubts about using it. Proper EQing can bring about some important improvements in a system (ie, loudspeaker/room/listener) but of course when it is misapplied it can easily worsen the sound.

http://abcbuzz.com/printmedia/books/...k%20review.pdf

He demonstrates why the resolution of 1/3-octave-band analyzers is insufficient in revealing high-Q resonances that may well be tamed with parametric equalization—but not the conventional 1/3-octave band graphic EQs of the past. “We realize now that much of the problem with equalization was that the industry had been performing surgery with a blunt instrument.”

[trentv85050]

[QUOTE=Big Daddy;4035002]I agree with BIslander one hundred percent. I did not mention anything about my equipment, my home theater, or my own preference. I simply made a statement that bass management, room treatment, equalization apply equally to both music and movies. I made my point based on scientific principles and not based on personal preference.[/QUOTE]

Scientific principles or Personal preference?

Big Government or Small Government?

Hmm...

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I agree with BIslander one hundred percent. I did not mention anything about my equipment, my home theater, or my own preference. I simply made a statement that bass management, room treatment, and equalization apply equally to both music and movies. I made my point based on scientific principles and not based on personal preference.

Big Daddy, I wanna directly apologize to you for having used a "too direct" statement about my conviction on that prior post of mine (with that main line edited now). You're a very nice man, and one of the most giving here on this site; and it was "wrong" of me for having said that you were 100% wrong. I'm the one that was wrong to have said that.

* And I do agree with you that it can be done (proper bass management that works for both Music & Movies). But you do it right for Music first, not the other way around, IMVHO.

~ Weird on how sometimes I can take a subject so seriously at heart!
I hate myself when that happens! ...Seriously!

[Funky54]

[QUOTE=trentv85050;4035091]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

I agree with BIslander one hundred percent. I did not mention anything about my equipment, my home theater, or my own preference. I simply made a statement that bass management, room treatment, equalization apply equally to both music and movies. I made my point based on scientific principles and not based on personal preference.[/QUOTE]

Scientific principles or Personal preference?

Big Government or Small Government?

Hmm...

I'm new to the forum and don't have a dog in this fight. I get what everyone’s saying. I think everyone is right from a certain perspective. I finally got my analog multichannel working well. It sounds great.

I have "Analog Bass Management" turned to on. So far every CD I have put in the player and sent signal to the Decoder in "6 channel bypass" has played in stereo. I have yet to hear any bass coming from the subwoofer. So I guess it all doesn't matter. Either I have yet to play a recording that uses the sub or the player says "no I don’t need to send any signal there" I don't have a dedicated room for anything. I downsized to a house with a large room that shares kitchen, living room, wet bar and dining room with cathedral ceilings, lots of windows, wood floors and a wife. Other than furniture and a throw rug there are no room treatments. It sounds great. I think I'm getting the best of both worlds, when I listen to music its only using stereo, when its movies the sub, center and surrounds all kick in to share what they have to say. So I guess I don’t get why everyone’s drawing lines in the sand over it.

[BIslander]

Originally Posted by Funky54

I have "Analog Bass Management" turned to on. So far every CD I have put in the player and sent signal to the Decoder in "6 channel bypass" has played in stereo. I have yet to hear any bass coming from the subwoofer. So I guess it all doesn't matter. Either I have yet to play a recording that uses the sub or the player says "no I don’t need to send any signal there".

From that description, I'm guessing you aren't actually using bass management. CDs do not have a subwoofer channel. They are recorded in stereo and the only way the sub will be engaged is by bass management. If you play CDs and your sub is always silent, then (A) you aren't using bass management, (B) the discs have no deep bass in the recording, or (C) the crossover is set so low that nothing ever gets re-directed to the sub.

It's easy to test your set-up. Get a calibration disc such as Avia with bass sweeps. Sweeps run down through a range of frequencies for each speaker in your system. You can hear when bass management kicks in and starts re-directing sound from a speaker to the sub.

I think I'm getting the best of both worlds, when I listen to music its only using stereo, when its movies the sub, center and surrounds all kick in to share what they have to say. So I guess I don’t get why everyone’s drawing lines in the sand over it.

You're missing the point. Bass management and room correction may make your stereo recordings sound better, too. If bass management helps with multichannel audio, it will help with stereo.

[LordoftheRings]

...But he luvs to run his Alon IV loudspeakers Full Range.