To Audyssey or not to Audyssey...Your Opinions?

[Hillside Trece]

I realize, through site research, that this has been discussed sometimes ad nauseum on this forum in one way or another, but I'd like to focus directly on this topic instead of other people's individual calibration issues -- those of you with the Audyssey auto cal/room correction system baked into your AVRs (and perhaps those with AVRs that boast proprietary systems like Yamaha's), how do you feel about Audyssey? Are you running it, or do you leave it defeated, along with the EQ curve it sets?

Boy -- I know this topic is overtly polarizing, but to me, I just didn't like the results I was getting from my Onkyo 605's 2EQ setup (which I realize is the weakest version Audyssey makes)...the EQ curve seemed to activate the cinema re-EQ kind of application/algorithm and blanketed/smothered my high frequencies...the distances were close enough, but the crossovers were all over the place (I know, an Onkyo implementation) and the channel trims always changed each time I ran the program. This just turned me off, so I adjusted my channels myself, manually measured my distances, left EQ off (thinking it was the closest way to hear the soundtrack the way engineers intended) and entered crossover points manually.

What do you guys do...do you definitely run Audyssey and feel it must be used, no matter what? Do you use the system for baseline settings and then adjust from there? Do you leave it off completely, manually tweaking EQ or leaving EQ off and use an SPL meter, or set the channels to taste?

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

left EQ off (thinking it was the closest way to hear the soundtrack the way engineers intended) and entered crossover points manually.

Do you really feel leaving the EQ flat is the closet thing to hear the soundtrack the way engineers intended? If you do feel this way, then which receiver do you feel plays the soundtrack in the way it was intended to be heard? What I mean by my second question is, not all AVR will sound the same if the EQ were all flat. I'm sure not all will come close even with tweaking the EQ or letting auto function set it up for you, but it’s an improvement.

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Do you really feel leaving the EQ flat is the closet thing to hear the soundtrack the way engineers intended? If you do feel this way, then which receiver do you feel plays the soundtrack in the way it was intended to be heard? What I mean by my second question is, not all AVR will sound the same if the EQ were all flat. I'm sure not all will come close even with tweaking the EQ or letting auto function set it up for you, but it’s an improvement.

HAMP,

Perhaps my statement was too broad and too general...what I meant was, I had assumed that leaving a system with an EQ turned off was more "neutral" as compared to having the sound "colored" with an EQ -- almost like the argument of the EQ being a "glorified tone control"...

I did not mean to come off sounding like I "knew what the engineers meant" when I leave EQ off...my apologies.

As for the improvement you speak of, I don't hear it when I have Audyssey set everything up -- in fact, the system just seems to "breathe" when the EQ it sets is turned off...

Do we definitely need to run Audyssey, no matter what the end result is? I understand the version I have -- 2EQ -- is the bottom of the barrel in terms of their setup programs...

[HAMP]

Please forgive me, I didn't mean to sound harsh. Sometimes I should use smilies, but then I might sound like a smart arse and really piss people off.

I have not really done any comparisons with the EQ on compared to off. My closest so called comparison was when I first installed my stuff at my new house(that a whole nother story). My friends were over and they ask to hear how it sounds. At that time I did not do any kind of setup, but it sounded goooood. All I was thinking at that moment was, “I can’t wait to run Audyssey to see how it sounds at it’s best”.

It is possible that it can sound just as good or better, I haven’t tried it yet.

I do admit, I wish the EQ was not locked out when I have Audyssey running, I wouldn’t mind doing abit of tweaking. I’m sure my tweaking would make it worst.

You have to know, that EQ is not some cheap audio software that is used, not even yours.

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Please forgive me, I didn't mean to sound harsh. Sometimes I should use smilies, but then I might sound like a smart arse and really piss people off.

No worries. Just wanted to express my intentions of what I meant.

I have not really done any comparisons with the EQ on compared to off. My closest so called comparison was when I first installed my stuff at my new house(that a whole nother story). My friends were over and they ask to hear how it sounds. At that time I did not do any kind of setup, but it sounded goooood. All I was thinking at that moment was, “I can’t wait to run Audyssey to see how it sounds at it’s best”.

It is possible that it can sound just as good or better, I haven’t tried it yet.

Indeed; and you have one awesome Onkyo!

I do admit, I wish the EQ was not locked out when I have Audyssey running, I wouldn’t mind doing abit of tweaking. I’m sure my tweaking would make it worst.

Yes, Audyssey gets locked out once you use their auto curve...

Instead of just messing with all that, I just leave the EQ off...

You have to know, that EQ is not some cheap audio software that is used, not even yours.

Perhaps, but I have heard so many arguments to the effect of Audyssey 2EQ really isn't doing anything, it's useless, it's a weak attempt at trying to "correct" a room's modes...

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

I realize, through site research, that this has been discussed sometimes ad nauseum on this forum in one way or another, but I'd like to focus directly on this topic instead of other people's individual calibration issues -- those of you with the Audyssey auto cal/room correction system baked into your AVRs (and perhaps those with AVRs that boast proprietary systems like Yamaha's), how do you feel about Audyssey? Are you running it, or do you leave it defeated, along with the EQ curve it sets?

Boy -- I know this topic is overtly polarizing, but to me, I just didn't like the results I was getting from my Onkyo 605's 2EQ setup (which I realize is the weakest version Audyssey makes)...the EQ curve seemed to activate the cinema re-EQ kind of application/algorithm and blanketed/smothered my high frequencies...the distances were close enough, but the crossovers were all over the place (I know, an Onkyo implementation) and the channel trims always changed each time I ran the program. This just turned me off, so I adjusted my channels myself, manually measured my distances, left EQ off (thinking it was the closest way to hear the soundtrack the way engineers intended) and entered crossover points manually.

What do you guys do...do you definitely run Audyssey and feel it must be used, no matter what? Do you use the system for baseline settings and then adjust from there? Do you leave it off completely, manually tweaking EQ or leaving EQ off and use an SPL meter, or set the channels to taste?

If the Audyssey auto calibration is set up and performed properly, the results will be outstanding. Most people have trouble because they don't do it right.

Please read the detailed sticky https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...hnologies.html. Almost all the issues you have raised are dealt with in that thread.

Post #2 specifically deals with why using a flat frequency curve is not a good idea. Also, it discusses the issue of why many Onkyo receiver owners have difficulty with Audyssey. Part of the problem is the way Onkyo deals with the Audyssey Target Reference Curve and Audyssey Flat Curve.

[Tufelhundin]

I use MultEQ-XT via my 1007 and I'm not sure I will get another AVR/PRE without at least XT. I was floored by how things sounded in my room after initial setup. I was coming from an AVR that didn't have any type of calibration other than distance & level.

I was sold the 1st time I used it.


I also use the ASEQ to help my dual PBUs play nice with each other.


Per the engineer comment and keeping the EQ off for a more neutral sound, I can go with that, as long as room was treated properly, for that is what Audyssey helps with. Right? Correct me anyone if I'm wrong here.




note: yeah...what Big D said. HA!!


At least this is my .02 cents..............

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Big Daddy

If the Audyssey auto calibration is set up and performed properly, the results will be outstanding. Most people have trouble because they don't do it right.

Please read the detailed sticky https://forum.blu-ray.com/audio-theo...hnologies.html. Almost all the issues you have raised are dealt with in that thread.

I've read all there is to possibly be read on this matter -- believe me -- and was involved with the ridiculously long Audyssey thread on AVS where I personally discussed matters with Chris; I just wanted different kinds of input here.

Secondly, I did the setup on my system as best I could -- that is, mic in the proper position, taking the three readings, absolute silence in the room...for some reason, I just preferred Audyssey off...

I know I can't be nuts on this one -- I am sure I read of other members here not using Audyssey...

Post #2 specifically deals with why using a flat frequency curve is not a good idea. Also, it discusses the issue of why many Onkyo receiver owners have difficulty with Audyssey. Part of the problem is the way Onkyo deals with the Audyssey Target Reference Curve and Audyssey Flat Curve.

In a nutshell, why is it believed that a "flat" frequency curve is not a good idea -- and by "flat" I assume you mean the way I run the AVR, without an EQ on?

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Tufelhundin

I use MultEQ-XT via my 1007 and I'm not sure I will get another AVR/PRE without at least XT. I was floored by how things sounded in my room after initial setup. I was coming from an AVR that didn't have any type of calibration other than distance & level.

I was sold the 1st time I used it.

But in my particular setup, I'm restricted to Audyssey's 2EQ system, which is really as basic as it comes -- I am surprised that you weren't able to achieve anything memorable with "just" your distance and level adjustments on your prior AVR...

Can you give me an idea of why you felt "floored" upon initial setup? What were you hearing? Did you let your 1007 do full automatic setup?

Per the engineer comment and keeping the EQ off for a more neutral sound, I can go with that, as long as room was treated properly, for that is what Audyssey helps with. Right? Correct me anyone if I'm wrong here.

I had apologized to HAMP because of that statement -- it was too generalized in terms of referring to engineers and what they possibly "thought" the soundtrack should come across like. However, indeed I believe a system seems more "neutral" and kind of "the way it should sound" without EQ applied.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

Secondly, I did the setup on my system as best I could -- that is, mic in the proper position, taking the three readings, absolute silence in the room...for some reason, I just preferred Audyssey off...

I know I can't be nuts on this one -- I am sure I read of other members here not using Audyssey...

You’re not wrong with how you feel about how you have your setup and I'm sure no one is going to tell you your wrong. This part is also in big Daddy's thread

Reference vs. Preference

You just have a difference Preference then other and by talking about this or creating this thread, your kinda wondering why.

I hope that does not sound like I'm being harsh, It's been a long day for me and my brain is short circuit right now.

[Big Daddy]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

In a nutshell, why is it believed that a "flat" frequency curve is not a good idea -- and by "flat" I assume you mean the way I run the AVR, without an EQ on?

I don't have time right now, but I will respond in the near future. The response will deal with why equalization, bass management, etc. are needed. It may be several pages long.

[Tufelhundin]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

But in my particular setup, I'm restricted to Audyssey's 2EQ system, which is really as basic as it comes -- I am surprised that you weren't able to achieve anything memorable with "just" your distance and level adjustments on your prior AVR...

Can you give me an idea of why you felt "floored" upon initial setup? What were you hearing? Did you let your 1007 do full automatic setup?

Oh, things were good with basic calibration but when I ran the Audy set=up with the 1007, things were just better. I didn't change a thing other than pull out the old AVR and replace with the new one. The big thing with my system was how clear soundtracks sounded and how well the panned from speaker to speaker, the center speaker seemed to anchor the on screen dialog much better. "I'm not really good at describing things, but I'm doing my best here." Maybe it was just me "and the new thing", but it seemed that the speakers were more direct....my room was untreated and to me Audyssey seemed to make sounds from the left main come from the left, sounds from the right main come from the right...not just up front...if that makes sense.

As for the bass....well I use Dynamic EQ and REW showed me what I could hear/feel. The lower end was enhanced. But I will also say that according to REW the lower end curve was much more tame than without Audy. There were less dips & peaks. "This was without the aid of the ASEQ".

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

I had apologized to HAMP because of that statement -- it was too generalized in terms of referring to engineers and what they possibly "thought" the soundtrack should come across like. However, indeed I believe a system seems more "neutral" and kind of "the way it should sound" without EQ applied.

I saw that you apologized for that statement and I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone...I just believe that sound tracts where made to be heard in well treated rooms, and I also believe that Audyssey helps in less than ideal rooms "for some". Its not for everyone, I have read that some like Pioneers version much better.

[Hillside Trece]

Here's another thing, fellas...

The way my room is set up, the second positioning for the mic would be what is considered a no no to do according to Audyssey -- that is, the couch that sits against the side wall, off to the side of my primary seat, is actually outside of the main speaker area...I read that this position should NOT be outside the realm of the front main channels. In our room, there is absolutely no way around this -- so again, I thought 2EQ would be ineffective and inaccurate.

Also -- I was at a loss to understand what to do with my crossover programming...that is, Onkyo suggested the points, Audyssey plugged them in, but I knew they were wrong for my speakers (i.e. the fronts should be around 60Hz, not full range). But I was unsure if I should have CHANGED these values because as I understand it, going either up or down (forgot which) will negate the application of Audyssey...and then, there are the EQ curves...once auto set, my 605 reads "AUDYSSEY" on the display, suggesting me that's the EQ curve. How can I override this so I don't get those "lobbed off" highs?

Finally -- my Onkyo 605 is not THX certified, so where is the "reference" number on the absolute volume scale when calibrated via Audyssey 2EQ? There's no "0dB" to refer to, so what is 2EQ calibrating to -- is it somewhere in the "80" range, as I have read?

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Tufelhundin

Oh, things were good with basic calibration but when I ran the Audy set=up with the 1007, things were just better. I didn't change a thing other than pull out the old AVR and replace with the new one. The big thing with my system was how clear soundtracks sounded and how well the panned from speaker to speaker, the center speaker seemed to anchor the on screen dialog much better. "I'm not really good at describing things, but I'm doing my best here." Maybe it was just me "and the new thing", but it seemed that the speakers were more direct....my room was untreated and to me Audyssey seemed to make sounds from the left main come from the left, sounds from the right main come from the right...not just up front...if that makes sense.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this -- but I would think that the "panning" from channel to channel and such would be just the same via manual calibration, no? Is the system inside your 1007 taking into account time domain delay and such perhaps? I don't know...I just plug my distances in, adjust the crossovers and trim my channel dBs in the "+" range -- is Audyssey 2EQ doing something more?

Did you do nothing but run the auto setup on your Onk?

As for the bass....well I use Dynamic Vol and REW showed me what I could hear/feel. The lower end was enhanced. But I will also say that according to REW the lower end curve was much more tame than without Audy. There were less dips & peaks. "This was without the aid of the ASEQ".

I saw that you apologized for that statement and I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone...I just believe that sound tracts where made to be heard in well treated rooms, and I also believe that Audyssey helps in less than ideal rooms "for some". Its not for everyone, I have read that some like Pioneers version much better.

No worries. I don't know what it is; it seems like the system didn't allow the speakers to "breathe" through my Polk RTi12 mains and CSi30 center, or the SpeakerCraft surrounds...

[Tufelhundin]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

Thanks for taking the time to explain this -- but I would think that the "panning" from channel to channel and such would be just the same via manual calibration, no? Is the system inside your 1007 taking into account time domain delay and such perhaps? I don't know...I just plug my distances in, adjust the crossovers and trim my channel dBs in the "+" range -- is Audyssey 2EQ doing something more?

Did you do nothing but run the auto setup on your Onk?

No worries. I don't know what it is; it seems like the system didn't allow the speakers to "breathe" through my Polk RTi12 mains and CSi30 center, or the SpeakerCraft surrounds...

The only change I made was that Audy was setting all my speakers to large, and I changed it to 80 hz.


Audy may be making things sounds that do not suit you, and thats not a bad thing. I also had my couch against the wall, what I did was set the 1st sweep in my actual sitting spot, then I set the mic in the seating positions to the left and right, then I ran 3 more sweeps at the end of the couch seat "where your knees would be", I can run up to 8 positions with the 1007. Maybe not ideal, but with the wall behind my couch it seemed the best I could do.


I can run up to 32 locations with the ASEQ and lastnight I forgot that I could only run 8 with the MultEQ-XT in the 1007. I had ran 9 locations with ASEQ and when I ran the AVR, it began to calibrate after the 8th sweep..... I had forgot....

My system is not together and has been out of whack since my move back in July. Right now I have my duals set and my mains and that is it.

[Hillside Trece]

Originally Posted by Tufelhundin

The only change I made was that Audy was setting all my speakers to large, and I changed it to 80 hz.

80Hz across the board -- for all channels?

Audy may be making things sounds that do not suit you, and thats not a bad thing. I also had my couch against the wall, what I did was set the 1st sweep in my actual sitting spot, then I set the mic in the seating positions to the left and right, then I ran 3 more sweeps at the end of the couch seat "where your knees would be", I can run up to 8 positions with the 1007. Maybe not ideal, but with the wall behind my couch it seemed the best I could do.

I think I see what you're getting at here...because your couch was off to the side wall too, you set the mic for that position at the very edge of the couch (where knees would be) to compensate for the couch being out of the soundstage measureable area?

I didn't even think of that...

See, in my setup it's a bit tricky because the second mic position is supposed to be to the RIGHT of the primary -- the couch against the wall -- and the third is supposed to be just to my LEFT on the love seat, as there's no other seating off to the left of the primary spot, just a wall and fireplace...so:

MEASUREMENT 1: PRIMARY CENTER SEAT on LOVE SEAT
MEASUREMENT 2: TO THE RIGHT OF PRIMARY SEAT, COUCH ON WALL
MEASUREMENT 3: TO THE LEFT OF PRIMARY SEAT, RIGHT NEXT TO IT ON LOVE SEAT

I just gave up and entered my own distances and such...

I can run up to 32 locations with the ASEQ and lastnight I forgot that I could only run 8 with the MultEQ-XT in the 1007. I had ran 9 locations with ASEQ and when I ran the AVR, it began to calibrate after the 8th sweep..... I had forgot....

Indeed; well, I can only measure for THREE total spots with 2EQ...

[LordoftheRings]

Trece, if you can show me a graph (just a rough estimate would do) or a picture of your room setup with your front & rear speakers and couch; I'll give you my best shot for improving your Surround Sound experience.

Bob

[Tufelhundin]

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

80Hz across the board -- for all channels?

yes all channels, I have Onix Rockets 450's x 4 and a RS200 for center.

Originally Posted by Hillside Trece

I think I see what you're getting at here...because your couch was off to the side wall too, you set the mic for that position at the very edge of the couch (where knees would be) to compensate for the couch being out of the soundstage measureable area?

Yes, I put the mic to the extreme left & right of the couch seats ... I was trying to make a rectangle, it was the best i could do.

* * *
* * *

Maybe your limited due to the 2EQ and or the room itself is the issue. Either way, if it sound better without it then by all means...keep that sucker off.

[HAMP]

Originally Posted by LordoftheRings

Trece, if you can show me a graph (just a rough estimate would do) or a picture of your room setup with your front & rear speakers and couch; I'll give you my best shot for improving your Surround Sound experience.

Bob

Thats not fair, I want the same service he gets!!!!!

[LordoftheRings]

Originally Posted by HAMP

Thats not fair, I want the same service he gets!!!!!

Ya but... And besides... But then... Oh what the heck, just draw me a picture of your setup too HAMP, and I'll see what I can do for you too.