Will Blu-Ray be dvi/hdmi only?

[Rob]

Having read recently that to access Sky's upcoming 2006 hi-definition broadcasts your gonna need a tv with either dvi or hdmi, (that's also hdcp compatible), is there a chance that Blu-Ray might follow the same route. A few months ago I bought a hi-def (720p/1080i - 1366 by 768 res) lcd panel with 2 component inputs that I had thought made it reasonably future proof. Now I find out that I'll have to buy a new set in order to watch hi-def through sky as my tv doesn't have either dvi or hnmi. I'm concerned the same thing may happen with BR. Any thoughts?

[tron3]

I can't believe any HD TV would NOT have dvi. Some tv's, like my Sony, have High Definition component ports. I imagine blu-ray will will have component output because they know most tv's only have one dvi port.

That dvi port, in my case, is in use by the HD Tuner. I suppose it might even have an s-video port. You never know who wants to play this thing on a regular tv. :roll:

Ultimately, I would not sweat it. Cutting back the outputs limits their market. :wink:

[Rob]

It was just that Sky has decided that the only way it can protect it's digital content is to limit connections to dvi and/or hdmi. Can't believe Sky won't have component outs. How many people that would have wanted to pay for the service come 2006, now won't be able to.

[zombie]

It's been widely reported on Home Theater sites for a couple of years already that you'll need DVI or an equivalent to obtain HDTV broadcasts once analog is killed off. Still that's not going to happen by the mandated date, analog still has a few years of life to go IMO. Enjoy your TV now and pick up a new one later on... the prices of HDTVs are coming down pretty fast anyway. And yes I believe Blu-ray will not pass thru components. It'd be nice for early adopters to HDTV if it did though.

[Rob]

well I'll be buggered if I'm gonna replace my set in the next few years just because it doesn't have an hdmi input. They'll just have to wait for my money. Possibly 2010. If everyone knew that hdtv was going to be through digital video only, then how comes all digital tvs don't come with dvi/hdmi as standard? Surely the manufacturers would be the 1st to know!? :?:

[HT Fan]

Originally Posted by n2blu

It's been widely reported on Home Theater sites for a couple of years already that you'll need DVI or an equivalent to obtain HDTV broadcasts once analog is killed off.

Not quite. It has not been reported by any legitimate Home Theater that you will need DVI or an equivelent (HDMI) to obtain HDTV broadcasts once analog is killed off.

Most, if not ALL, HDTV tuners have an HD compenent video output that will continue to work after analog broadcasts are killed off. Do not confuse the digital *broadcast* format (ATSC/VSB) with the digital *connection* format (DVI/HDMI/IEEE-1394) to your TV. You can transfer a digital broadcast to your HDTV via analog connections. Heck, you can even hook up and HDTV tuner to your composite video or S-video port if you had to, although the picture would not be in high-def.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by HT Fan

Not quite. It has not been reported by any legitimate Home Theater that you will need DVI or an equivelent (HDMI) to obtain HDTV broadcasts once analog is killed off.

About a year ago there was a great deal of talk about the threat of HDMI - I don't know what classifies as "legitimate" but there was plenty of concern. The topic has frequently appeared in one form or another since then.

Although I don't agree with the idea of HDMI / DVI only for HD. There has been plenty of discussion about HDMI etc on this site. This site could only be classified as Legitimate.

I'M certain once the paranoia settles down Media Centres / Recievers will accept HDMI in and output in component as well as HDMI. There will be conversion box's as well. These may take a few years though.

Below are a couple of samples posted by Rob and N2Blu OVER a year ago from two seperate threads. To conserve space I chopped sections out (that do not alter the context) To get the full post as well the rest of the thread do an advanced search on HDMI for over a year ago.

Originally Posted by Rob

Taken from http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-...ws.php?id=7231

Sky drops a high definition bombshell

'More news has reached us about Sky’s proposed launch of high definition programming in 2006 – and what we’re hearing will send shockwaves throughout the AV industry.

<SNIP>

However, it was when discussing how the HD signal would be delivered from the Sky decoder box to a projector/plasma TV/LCD TV that the bombshell emerged, as Sky stated that the vast majority of HDTV programming will only be viewable if carried via HDMI or DVI connections that support the HDCP digital rights protection system. In other words, if your projector or flat panel screen only has component video inputs or an HDMI/DVI jack NOT compatible with the HDCP system, it will not show the majority of Sky’s HD services.

<SNIP>

There are also many screens/projectors in shops right now that don’t have the necessary connectivity, so if you’re thinking of buying one for Christmas – or whenever! – all we can do is stress in the strongest terms that you try and choose one with an HDCP-compliant HDMI or DVI jack.'


I wonder if the same decision will be made in order to protect Blu-Ray or HD-DVD discs? :?:

Or this from N2blu

Originally Posted by n2blu

It's been widely reported on Home Theater sites for a couple of years already that you'll need DVI or an equivalent to obtain HDTV broadcasts once analog is killed off. Still that's not going to happen by the mandated date, analog still has a few years of life to go IMO. Enjoy your TV now and pick up a new one later on... the prices of HDTVs are coming down pretty fast anyway. And yes I believe Blu-ray will not pass thru components. It'd be nice for early adopters to HDTV if it did though.

[zombie]

Originally Posted by HT Fan

Most, if not ALL, HDTV tuners have an HD compenent video output that will continue to work after analog broadcasts are killed off.

Show me the sources where they state consumers will be able to receive HD over component after analog broadcasts are turned off. You have criticized remarks I made a year ago based on internet HT sites at that time. If things have changed please provide some proof.

[Shadowself]

Will component video support 1080p/60.

The original version of HDMI will not support 1080p/60. However, the current specification will.

I know component video will support 1080i/30 (60 fields per second, but 30 full frames per second). There have been systems shipping with that interface for a couple years.

But...
Will component be able to support 1080p/60? If not (like the original HDMI spec) then this discussion is useless.

[Blu-Wave]

.. of course, although broadcasts may be at higher rates, the vast majority of films are currently recorded at 24 frames per second, giving a minimum standard for "full resolution" high definition of 1080p24 - assuming no temporal upscaling is applied prior to the signal being sent to the display. Even HD IMAX currently provides only 48 frames per second, but SHDV and UHDV are designed around 60fps, and Sony has a high definition roadmap past 100 ...

[thunderhawk]

Can we see this roadmap?

[AV_Integrated]

Component & analog broadcasts...

Analog broadcasts have nothing to do with component video or HDTV. Analog broadcasts are slated to be turned back to the FCC in 2009(ish) and at that point everyone will need a digital receiver to get over the air video. This video can be sent out over any format anyone wants. Composite and s-video for standard def, component, dvi, etc., for hi-def.

The requirement for DVI/HDMI with television AND Blu-Ray deals with HDCP which is a copyright protection scheme that is far, FAR better than what is on DVD. This digital protection for television broadcasts will occur when (if) the broadcast flag is raised. At that point, HDTV over cable, satellite, etc. which is digitallly protected (most shows), will only be output over a receivers DVI/HDMI port and will include HDCP encryption.

Blu-Ray, from day one, is slated to have HDCP protection on every single disc it produces, and this means that you should not expect any HD output over anything other than the HDMI/DVI port of the player. It likely will include other ports for non-HD output, but for the real deal, you not only need and DVI/HDMI television, you need one which is HDCP compliant.

I bought my projector over TWO years ago and at that time the industry, and any individual who did some research, was well aware that HDCP encryption was a reality coming down the road and that displays were already coming equipped with HDCP compliant connections. My plasmas have HDCP DVI/HDMI - my projector has a NON-HDCP compliant DVI port.

Guess it's going to be time for a new projector in a year or two.

[Blue]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Component & analog broadcasts...

Blu-Ray, from day one, is slated to have HDCP protection on every single disc it produces, and this means that you should not expect any HD output over anything other than the HDMI/DVI port of the player. It likely will include other ports for non-HD output, but for the real deal, you not only need and DVI/HDMI television, you need one which is HDCP compliant.

My understanding is that Blu Ray will not have any HDCP on any disk. Yes there will be plenty of copy protection but no HDCP - HDCP will be added just before it goes out the DVI or HDMI port. The disk will control if it requires HDCP or not but is not protected by it on the media.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Component & analog broadcasts...

Analog broadcasts have nothing to do with component video or HDTV. Analog broadcasts are slated to be turned back to the FCC in 2009(ish) and at that point everyone will need a digital receiver to get over the air video. This video can be sent out over any format anyone wants. Composite and s-video for standard def, component, dvi, etc., for hi-def.

The just announced compromise is 18 February 2009. All over the air transmissions must go digital. And you're right about the resolutions. A broadcaster could transmit 480p and still be compliant.

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

The requirement for DVI/HDMI with television AND Blu-Ray deals with HDCP which is a copyright protection scheme that is far, FAR better than what is on DVD. This digital protection for television broadcasts will occur when (if) the broadcast flag is raised. At that point, HDTV over cable, satellite, etc. which is digitallly protected (most shows), will only be output over a receivers DVI/HDMI port and will include HDCP encryption.

I have not seen this "requirement" in any part of the Blu-ray spec I've seen. I have not seen this in any FCC ruling. Can you give a link to either place which supports these statements? Otherwise this seems like pure speculation.

There is a move afoot to plug the "analog hole", but there are already a few groups out there mounting an offensive against this effort. http://www.arstechnica.com/news.ars/...1218-5797.html
(I suggest everyone write their representatives to fight this foolishness.) Yet, even if it does pass this would not keep vendors from having component video and audio on their systems. It would just regulate how it is done.

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Blu-Ray, from day one, is slated to have HDCP protection on every single disc it produces, and this means that you should not expect any HD output over anything other than the HDMI/DVI port of the player. It likely will include other ports for non-HD output, but for the real deal, you not only need and DVI/HDMI television, you need one which is HDCP compliant.

Again, I have not seen this in any piece of the Blu-ray specs to which I've had access.

As of yet I know of no formal reason why Blu-ray players won't support component video and sound up through 1080i as there are many, many TVs/Monitors which have been sold with this input. People are going to be more than slightly angry if they purchase a new Blu-ray player and have to go from 720p or 1080i which they now have to a much lower resolution/quality. Blu-ray is basing its marketing on BETTER resolution and sound. If people buy a player based upon that marketing and are force to WORSE resolution and sound I can 100% guarantee there will be class action lawsuits about this!

(Think not? You only have to look at the Apple iPod. Less than 0.1% of the first million or so sold had defective screens. There have been a few million sold since this defect was fixed. Apple offered to replace for free any that had a defective screen. Still, a class action lawsuit was filed against Apple for additional compensation "for knowingly shipping" a product that did not live up to people's expectations.
Similarly for Microsoft and the Xbox. Less than 3% of the systems have a power supply/overheating problem. Microsoft has offered to replace/repair them for free. Still, a class action lawsuit has been filed for Microsoft shipping defective systems.
Now think of the uproar if 100% of the systems shipped by Blu-ray vendors don't match the marketing hype. A monstrous class action lawsuit is absolutely going to happen.)

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

I bought my projector over TWO years ago and at that time the industry, and any individual who did some research, was well aware that HDCP encryption was a reality coming down the road and that displays were already coming equipped with HDCP compliant connections. My plasmas have HDCP DVI/HDMI - my projector has a NON-HDCP compliant DVI port.

Guess it's going to be time for a new projector in a year or two.

You should also be aware that even the HDCP DVI/HDMI on your plasmas probably won't support 1080p unless you bought them within the last few months. Not everything is as simple as HDCP or no HDCP.

[AV_Integrated]

Digital over the air - death of analog:

A broadcaster doesn't need to go to 480p to be compliant. The need to broadcast, over the air, in the digital spectrum and stop using the analog spectrum. They can use 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i - anything in the ATSC or NTSC lineup. There is no requirement other than they stop using the analog spectrum. It has NOTHING to do with DVI, HDMI, component, s-video, or composite video - it ONLY deals with not using the analog spectrum. Already in my area multiple stations broadcast 480i on digital channels on a regular basis.

The broadcast flag & HDCP - Google it - First hit I got... Note: This has nothing to do with Blu-Ray disc, but deals with broadcast television which broadcasters specifically have flagged as being copyright protected (flagged).

QUOTE FROM http://www.eff.org/broadcastflag/ at bottom of page about FCC ruling which has been delayed...
"Flagged content must be output only to "protected outputs" or in degraded form: through analog outputs or digital outputs with visual resolution of 720x480 pixels or less--less than 1/4 of HDTV's capability. Flagged content may be recorded only by "Authorized" methods, which may include tethering of recordings to a single device."

That, as I said originally, has nothing to do with Blu-Ray and discussions of analog and digital television in regards to DVI/HDMI will only matter if the broadcast flag is ever allowed to be raised by the FCC. There were several magazine articles about this in the past year.

It is correct that Blu-Ray does not specifically call for HDCP on the disc. It calls for broadcast flags. That is, the disc has a tag that says "I am copyright protected!" - Then the player may only output the content over protected outputs. This means HDCP over DVI/HDMI or a lower resolution over component, s-video, or composite. Basically the same as a broadcast flag on the discs. This most definitely has been included since day 1 as part of protecting the content on the discs. Much like almost all upconverting DVD players only output over HDMI/DVI.

I expect some Korean Blu-Ray manufacturer may bypass the copyright flag and give us 1080i/720p over component - but it may not be something that is legally sold in the USA.

As for lawsuits? Expectations of the stupid does not make a law. Likewise, a lawsuit certainly will be brought and just like Apple and Microsoft, they will be thrown out or settled. The specification calls for the broadcast flag and you CAN view the content, but to protect against illegal copying, they aren't allowing full resolution over unprotected analog output. Sorry, it's been there from the beginning - where did you hear differently? Since it has never been any other way, it is just those who are generally whiny to begin with that will complain about their own lack of knowledge. Likewise with the X-Box and the iPod - whiny people who weren't happy with the customer service provided. Silliness!

None of my displays support 1080p. Very few displays at this time do. I plan on replacing my front projector with a 1080p model which accepts 1080p over HDMI in 1-2 years. Till then, I'll live with what I have.

Either way, I do expect that Blu-Ray Disc players will be able to output 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 480p, and 480i signals from the player regardless of what format is on the disc. This is in much the same way that current upconverting DVD players change the 480i/p material on DVDs into 480i/p, 720p, or 1080i.

1080p will be one of the big questions for a while I believe - but there is a lot of support for it by people.

[Shadowself]

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

Digital over the air - death of analog:

A broadcaster doesn't need to go to 480p to be compliant.

True. I used 480p only as an example to indicate that digital broadcasts don't have to be high definition broadcasts.

My statement was to say, basically, that any reasonable DIGITAL broadcast will be compliant. It does not even have to be NTSC or ATSC "standards" compliant. I have seen no where in the recently passed congressional legislation (compromise reached within the last few days) which states any specific format other than the signals must be digital and broadcast in the "digital spectrum" (technically a stupid term, if there ever were one). Did I miss something?

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

The broadcast flag & HDCP - Google it - First hit I got... Note: This has nothing to do with Blu-Ray disc, but deals with broadcast television which broadcasters specifically have flagged as being copyright protected (flagged).

QUOTE FROM http://www.eff.org/broadcastflag/ at bottom of page about FCC ruling which has been delayed...

and discussions of analog and digital television in regards to DVI/HDMI will only matter if the broadcast flag is ever allowed to be raised by the FCC.

That was exactly my point. There is a significant amount of controversy over the broadcast flag issue. To my knowledge it has NOT been implemented or required yet. It may never be. To make statements that Blu-ray Disk players (and other, similar types of A/V components) WILL be required to support hardware which will work with this, as yet unrequired, item is misleading.

The most anyone can say is...
IF the broadcast flag (or similar copy prevention item) gets required by the government
THEN there will be a period of transition to systems and hardware which requires it and properly implements it.
Such things don't get implemented overnight. Even if the broadcast flag were required starting 1 January 2006 the FCC would have to give hardware vendors many months (if not a couple years or more) to fully implement it.

Originally Posted by AV_Integrated

It is correct that Blu-Ray does not specifically call for HDCP on the disc. It calls for broadcast flags. That is, the disc has a tag that says "I am copyright protected!" - Then the player may only output the content over protected outputs. This means HDCP over DVI/HDMI or a lower resolution over component, s-video, or composite. Basically the same as a broadcast flag on the discs. This most definitely has been included since day 1 as part of protecting the content on the discs. Much like almost all upconverting DVD players only output over HDMI/DVI.

Again, not necessarily so. Unless you can find something that says, as of today -- or something requiring its implementation before the first Blu-ray Disk players ship -- it is pure speculation that players will require support for HDCP over DVI/HDMI. I know of no FCC ruling or U.S. Government regulation or law which requires this at this time. Also, as I've said before I've seen nothing in the parts of the spec I've seen [I freely admit I have NOT read the entire spec] which require all spec compiant players to have HDCP over DVI/HDMI.

If it's there, just give me a reference.

[AV_Integrated]

You keep tying the FCC and over the air broadcasts to Blu-Ray. The two are mutually exclusive.

The broadcast flag, right now, can be raised and existing equipment that doesn't support the flag can ignore it. But, any new equipment sold must support the broadcast flag. Of course, the broadcast flag wasn't raised and so digital HD protected content can't have that flag raised. It affects noone - at all.

And has nothing to do with Blu-Ray Disc.

Blu-Ray Disc (and HD-DVD) both allow for the flag and it is required in the hardware. It is in the spec. A disc that is flagged copyright protected, which most movies will be, will only output video over HDMI/DVI w/HDCP protection. This isn't a phenomenal development or news, but has been status quo for the design since day one. Copyright protection, and BETTER copyright protection is one of the drawing points that Blu-Ray has been utlizing to lure movie houses to produce videos on Blu-Ray since the beginning. Some movie studios have said "We like that Blu-Ray offers a greater level of copyright protection for our discs than HD-DVD does."

It is not speculation that the requirement is there - it is speculation that it will not be changed at the last minute and players will be allowed to output HD over analog or over HDMI/DVI without HDCP encryption. It is not a difficult change to make really.

But, I wouldn't be one to bet money on it. For the last two years we have seen more and more DVD players ship with HDMI/DVI output and those ports are the ONLY way to get 1080i/720p material and that material is HDCP encrypted. They are working the bugs out now, so Blu-Ray doesn't have the same issues.

I am not going to dig through the White Papers to find the reference, but I have read about it in press releases and have been following both formats (more notably Blu-Ray) for about 3 years now. When I started projector shopping 3 years ago it was an issue then with HD and it was on the books that HD discs would be HDCP encrypted - and there were HDCP DVI inputs already on many digital displays.

All that said: I really, really, really hope they allow for HD content over component. I don't care if it reaches to 1080p, but I do care about 1080i and 720p because that is what 99.9% of all existing HD displays can show and in my home, I'm fully wired for component, but pulling HDMI, until they come up with a slightly smaller connector, will be a pain. But - I will do it if I need to - and I won't complain because I've known about this for several years now.

By the way - I'll be happy to be wrong. It's supposed to be fun!

[Blu-Wave]

With Shadowself's talk of class action, perhaps Sony and Philips should be getting a little worried about CD's "perfect sound forever" promise? Then again, "imperfect sound for quite a long time" wouldn't have had quite the same impact as a marketing slogan. Imagine if ads actually told the truth ...