Square Enix Takes $150m Loss

[FinalEvangelion]

I knew things were going to go bad when Square and Enix merged, and thus where I think they started going down hill. You effectively eliminated 80% of the jRPG competition in that merger. Squaresoft was able to come with such great stuff because of the competition from their biggest rival - Enix.

If only I could go back and make sure Spirits Within was never made - I would.

[QuantumRoyale007]

I guess now would be a good time for them to sell the rights for Geno and Mallow to Nintendo where they belong.

[Steelmaker]

Personally I think it's a result of Japanese developers refusing to evolve their rpg's the way western and euro developers have. RPG's like Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Demon's Souls, Dragon Age have taken the rpg genre in new directions while companies like S/E remain stuck in their customary methods, refusing to change.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

Personally I think it's a result of Japanese developers refusing to evolve their rpg's the way western and euro developers have. RPG's like Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Demon's Souls, Dragon Age have taken the rpg genre in new directions while companies like S/E remain stuck in their customary methods, refusing to change.

Uhh... Demon's Souls is a Japanese-developed RPG. Just sayin'. It is the exception that proves the rule, though.

Your point about stagnation in the Japanese video game industry is well-taken. Very few Japanese developers really try hard to innovate. Part of that is the culture. Those of us that live in the West can find it difficult to comprehend just how much the Japanese are bound by tradition, but it's true. Not only are the developers themselves unaccustomed to "thinking outside the box" - the consumers are too. There's a reason why incredibly stale series like Dragon Quest sell like gangbusters over there; the Japanese consumers like it when their favorite things don't change.

This causes a rather nasty loop; developers who try hard to push the envelope get negative feedback from the Japanese public - both from commentary and from sales numbers. This last also means that management at these developers are leery of change, because a sizable chunk of the buying public just isn't interested in change. This sort of reinforcement trickles down everywhere in Japan, not just in video games.

That doesn't mean that new concepts can't take hold and flourish (see: Wii Fit, Monster Hunter Portable, iPhone, etc.). But the Japanese public as a whole does not suffer from the same sort of "seen that, tired of it" hedonistic ennui that is such a fundamental concept for Western consumers.

[yobrenoops]

Originally Posted by Maximus

If you're talking about FFXIII, then the game that was conceived is very different to the game that was released 4 years later. Most of the changes happened in the last year after the 360 announcement. An announcement that took most of the development staff by surprise.

Max, didn't you say that there was a big story behind that that you knew and might be willing to tell at some point in the future?

Have we reached that point?

[Ite]

I thought Just Cause 2 was great.

[Blu-Runner]

I enjoyed their games more when they were two different companies, Squaresoft and Enix. Although I have to admit I enjoyed DQIX and Valkyrie Profile CotP on the DS. Everything else they've done since the merger just stinks.

Edit: FFXII on the PS2 was good, too.

[Septimus Prime]

Originally Posted by Steelmaker

Personally I think it's a result of Japanese developers refusing to evolve their rpg's the way western and euro developers have. RPG's like Oblivion, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Demon's Souls, Dragon Age have taken the rpg genre in new directions while companies like S/E remain stuck in their customary methods, refusing to change.

I completely, wholeheartedly disagree with this, and I really think it's extremely crude and narcissistic that so many Western developers to subscribe to this paradigm.

When we observe Japanese titles, we see it's the publishers that are trying to "Westernize" their games, like Square Enix, that are the ones that are doing poorly. Meanwhile, those who stick with their winning formulas, like Nintendo, make hand over fist.

[Snake_XRS]

Even though I'm a sucker for FF, I have to admit their outlook gave me a slight sense of justice and satisfaction for the giant turd they delivered titled FF13.

I'm not into MMO's, so I have no interest in FF14, but have read about the never-ending problems that game is having, upper management changes, delays, etc. It seems to be a frantic mess actually.

I have high hopes for versus, but its so far from release it almost doesn't matter.

I've been playing Resonance of Fate lately, and for some reason I can't put that game down. It can't compare to FF13 graphically, but there is something extremely addictive in the combat that keeps me coming back over and over, and the weapon and outfit customization is so awesome. The story is kind of blah and slow to unfold, but nowhere near as slow as FF13. I mention this because at no point in playing 13 did I EVER get the feeling of "not wanting to put the controller down", which I imagine is every developer's ultimate goal for their game.

For some reason starting from FF12, SE keeps reducing the amount of interactivity in their games, starting from giving us the gambit system to FF13'S auto combat. Also, one other thing I really don't like that all Final Fantasy's are guilty of is giving us a too many characters who are out on the sidelines through a majority of the game. Give us 3 or so main characters and develop them properly, instead of a band of 10 rebels who don't get enough development time.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by yobrenoops

Max, didn't you say that there was a big story behind that that you knew and might be willing to tell at some point in the future?

Have we reached that point?

No. Still a long time to go yet. Maybe if Wada gets chucked out one day.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Septimus Prime

I completely, wholeheartedly disagree with this, and I really think it's extremely crude and narcissistic that so many Western developers to subscribe to this paradigm.

When we observe Japanese titles, we see it's the publishers that are trying to "Westernize" their games, like Square Enix, that are the ones that are doing poorly. Meanwhile, those who stick with their winning formulas, like Nintendo, make hand over fist.

This is exactly it. People like Pachter who advise Japanese developers to westernise their games have no idea. Every publisher who has engaged in the westernisation has suffered in Japan and without a strong base they are now in trouble.

I mentioned this in the Tales of Xillia thread, but I think the Japanese publishers are retrenching, and Capcom firing Kenji Inafune will be seen as the turning point for Japanese developers.

I think we can add Namco, Capcom, NISA and Square to the publishers who bet on westernisation this gen and only Capcom have seen some kind of return. NISA are almost bankrupt and Namco are retrenching. On the other hand Level-5, From Software and Konami stuck with the Japanese structure and all of them have done well this gen. Level-5 especially, they have literally snubbed western ways in every way possible from refusing to work with Microsoft and rarely bothering to publish their own games abroad but they are easily the biggest winners this gen.

[tarvis]

I was under the impression that White Knight Chronicles severely underperformed. But my personal interest waned between the original demo and the actual release gameplay. And, regarding From Software, Demon's Souls is about as Western a dungeon hack as you can get. As for Konami, MGS4 pops into my head which finally updated its control scheme to a more traditional Western third person shooter. The only other Konami release I can think of is Silent Hill: Homecoming, which was of course fully developed by Western developers.

[Septimus Prime]

Well, the big winners right now are surely the Western publishers. I think that's precisely the problem, as some of the Japanese publishers saw that and thought they could replicate that success by mimicking Western games.

The Japanese publisher I work for does it this way: when we have "Western" games, we produce them locally and utilize Western developers (or our one superstar guy, who makes every game he ever touches solid gold ). Stuff that's popular here and not so much elsewhere—like Facebook games, for example—is done here, by people who are in touch with the offerings from competitors and know what they themselves would like to play. We then send some of those to Japan. Likewise, our Japanese counterparts do the same for us with some of their games.

It helps to let the people who know what they're doing do what they do.

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by tarvis

And, regarding From Software, Demon's Souls is about as Western a dungeon hack as you can get.

Demon's souls, while not a traditional JRPG, is not a Western RPG either, unless you literally take the stance that WRPG is anything vaguely RPG like that's not traditional JRPG.

[nameisjimbo]

Wasn't FFXIII released in last year's fiscal year? In any event, if almost all of the sony major titles are down in Japan over the ps2 generation, I'm not sure how much impact bumping up the quality of FFXIII would have had, at least in Japan, the most important FF region. Personally, I haven't liked one since IX, and the only dud prior to IX for me was II, so perhaps I am not in their target demo any longer. Unless the 360 version caused movement to the corridor game now and it would have been more open world, I don't blame SE for going after 360 only owners, the western pie is just that much larger with their inclusion.

I suppose if the argument is that the 360 version led to delays which means that games that should have been out this year have been pushed back, I can see it. Though, the example from the article being pushed out of this year is DE3, which I'm guessing is by a different team.

In any event SQ has screwed up quite a bit this generation, in my book the FF13 downgrade, whatever it may be-everything I've seen posted around the web is only innuendo, though I haven't poked around lately-strikes me as less important than the ridiculous delays in the release timing. Some of that can be attributed to the 360 version inclusion, but really, it speaks to a failure in vision to take the years it took in development.

Screw ups by SQ this generation:
1. FFXIII perpetual release delays (should have been a 2008 release)
2. FF Versus release (should have been a 2010 release
3. KH3: really, where the hell is this, it is one of the few major western hits in the old SE stable and what, handheld spinoffs only?
4. DQS2 should have been released with M+ in 2008, DQS was afterall the best selling console rpg in japan for some time this generation-WII support has been pretty terrible in general.
5. Personal: No TWEWY 2
6. Personal: No PS3 release of Last Remnant, which is my favorite JRPG of the generation
7. Should have given the PSP a few more remakes in the vein of FFI/FFII, I found support for the DS to be pretty good, most of my (US) DS collection is SE property.
8. FFXIV: What needs to be said, really.

I dont' know much about the EIDOS properties, but they strike me as a bit stale (TR in particular), I know they are revamping significantly them, though.

Really there are too many chiefs that have control over their games that you can't dictate the release schedule unlike the western Activision and EA. An Activision would have a yearly rotation that would put out a flagship every year, so say FFXIII in 2008, DQIX 2009, KH3 2010, FFXIV 2011 and so on. Releasing DQIX and FFXIII in the same calendar year is just absurd.

[tarvis]

Originally Posted by Terjyn

Demon's souls, while not a traditional JRPG, is not a Western RPG either, unless you literally take the stance that WRPG is anything vaguely RPG like that's not traditional JRPG.

Demon's Souls is another game influenced by, and borrows heavily from, Ultima Underworld.

[Terjyn]

Originally Posted by tarvis

Demon's Souls is another game influenced by, and borrows heavily from, Ultima Underworld.

If by borrows heavily from you mean "Real time" and "3d". In no other ways are they remotely similar.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by tarvis

Demon's Souls is another game influenced by, and borrows heavily from, Ultima Underworld.

If by influenced you mean not influenced in any way then yes I agree...

[tarvis]

Sorry, then what is it about Demon's Souls you feel is distinctly Japanese and/or original? Aesthetically or otherwise.

[Icemage]

Originally Posted by tarvis

Sorry, then what is it about Demon's Souls you feel is distinctly Japanese and/or original? Aesthetically or otherwise.

The grindtastic level-up system that requires random loot drops? That's a classic hallmark of Japanese RPG design.