Convergence Issues ?

[GAWD]

If I display a line of text made with a single Pixel TEXT as shown here :
http://www.pbase.com/jackcnd/image/7...1/original.jpg

It looks "ok" from my seating position. It's not razor sharp nor is it really blurry. I'd consider it soft compared to my LCD TV.

When I get up close to the screen and look at how the letters are displayed, the T for example is like the following picture with a little white fog around the outer portion:




Am I suffering from any convergence issues? I have the projector less than two weeks.






With DVE playing seems like I'm one pixel off or so. Now I see guys saying 1 pixel is fine but what do you think? Worth going through the hassles or returning it for another?

[DrNegative]

Originally Posted by GAWD

With DVE playing seems like I'm one pixel off or so. Now I see guys saying 1 pixel is fine but what do you think? Worth going through the hassles or returning it for another?

One pixel mis-convergence is well within manufacturing tolerances for a typical 3 panel LCD projector. The only way to get any better than that is to get lucky or get a single-chip DLP projector.

I have read that some videophiles who return a 1-off, end up receiving a 2 and 3-off in return and are in even worse shape than before. It's a gamble, I would keep it, but that is if it were me.

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by DrNegative

One pixel mis-convergence is well within manufacturing tolerances for a typical 3 panel LCD projector. The only way to get any better than that is to get lucky or get a single-chip DLP projector.

I have read that some videophiles who return a 1-off, end up receiving a 2 and 3-off in return and are in even worse shape than before. It's a gamble, I would keep it, but that is if it were me.

I agree with everything you typed, especially the 2nd part.

Bill

[Flatnate]

For what its worth my JVC DILA blue panel is about a half a pixel off as well. I never notice it with regular viewing or more than two feet from the screen. Very similar to your projector and the JVC retailed just shy of 8 grand new, so these are not issues just relegated to "lower end projectors". I also really doubt you'll manage much better by exchanging it unless you go single chip DLP instead.

[GAWD]

Thanks guys. Seems like it's the reverse placebo effect when you start reading all the threads about whatever product u buy lol

The picture is great the projector works fine. Guess when u see other people's convergence issues u start thinking yeah mine is "broken" too.

I can't go DLP for now because of the placement issues and needed lens shift.

you don't notice these things until you really start looking for them

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by GAWD

Thanks guys. Seems like it's the reverse placebo effect when you start reading all the threads about whatever product u buy lol

The picture is great the projector works fine. Guess when u see other people's convergence issues u start thinking yeah mine is "broken" too.

I can't go DLP for now because of the placement issues and needed lens shift.

you don't notice these things until you really start looking for them

Ain't that the truth. I have to force myself to actually sit still and watch movies instead of messing with things trying to make the picture .00001% better, it's our curse as enthusiasts.

Bill

[Jim L]

I would agree that most manufacturers would consider that "within tolerances", but being the perfectionist that I am it would bug me to death. It's like if I had an LCD display with a dead pixel on it. It might be hard to notice, but after I knew where it was I would always be looking for it.

When I was researching projectors, I decided to go with my Sony SXRD (LCOS) projector because of a feature called panel alignment. It is accessed through the user menu and when activated displays a full screen grid pattern. It lets you separately align the red or blue panel to the green panel by shifting the alignment in 1/10 (one-tenth) pixel increments horizontally and vertically. It is quite a handy feature. To me even a small mis-alignment reduces the sharpness and quality of the overall image. I especially notice mis-alignment on text. Once I got my alignment perfect, set my vertical and horizontal shift, level and focus, my image is almost as good as can be. Of course you can always calibrate other parameters too.

Is it possible that you have an alignment control on yours? Dig through all the menu options and look for it. Mine is buried pretty far down in the ADVANCED settings. It might make enough difference to alleviate what you're seeing.

Good luck!

[GAWD]

Originally Posted by Jim L

I would agree that most manufacturers would consider that "within tolerances", but being the perfectionist that I am it would bug me to death. It's like if I had an LCD display with a dead pixel on it. It might be hard to notice, but after I knew where it was I would always be looking for it.

When I was researching projectors, I decided to go with my Sony SXRD (LCOS) projector because of a feature called panel alignment. It is accessed through the user menu and when activated displays a full screen grid pattern. It lets you separately align the red or blue panel to the green panel by shifting the alignment in 1/10 (one-tenth) pixel increments horizontally and vertically. It is quite a handy feature. To me even a small mis-alignment reduces the sharpness and quality of the overall image. I especially notice mis-alignment on text. Once I got my alignment perfect, set my vertical and horizontal shift, level and focus, my image is almost as good as can be. Of course you can always calibrate other parameters too.

Is it possible that you have an alignment control on yours? Dig through all the menu options and look for it. Mine is buried pretty far down in the ADVANCED settings. It might make enough difference to alleviate what you're seeing.

Good luck!

Thanks for the input Jim. The Epsons do not have any alignment options.
I've been playing with it all morning. Besides looking at TEST patterns u couldn't tell there's any issues with it. Even with the test patterns I noticed I'm one pixel off and that's from 10 inches away. Half way through Iron Man I forgot all about it lol

when shopping I narrowed my search down to Optoma or Epson. Needed the lens shift so most DLPs were out of the running.

After living with the Optical Block issues on my Sony SXRD projection TV I stopped looking at used Sonys also.

Like Bill said it's the enthusiasts in us that drive ourselves crazy lol My wife and friends look at the picture in amazement..while I'm thinking hmmmm i'm pretty sure I can work on that black level just a little more

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by GAWD

Like Bill said it's the enthusiasts in us that drive ourselves crazy lol My wife and friends look at the picture in amazement..while I'm thinking hmmmm i'm pretty sure I can work on that black level just a little more

I think that is why my wife stays in the house when I watch things

Bill

[Trogdor2010]

Originally Posted by DrNegative

One pixel mis-convergence is well within manufacturing tolerances for a typical 3 panel LCD projector. The only way to get any better than that is to get lucky or get a single-chip DLP projector.

I have read that some videophiles who return a 1-off, end up receiving a 2 and 3-off in return and are in even worse shape than before. It's a gamble, I would keep it, but that is if it were me.

DLP sets can emit the rainbow effect, which if move your eyes alot at certain scenes (like mixes of light and dark; like torches in a dark room or end credits), you will see flashes of colors. Not alot of people are bothered, but If you are bothered by this, you are going to have to live with the limitations of 3-chip sets.

Admittedly, even if a pixel or two is off, it's hardly at all an issue if your main goal is to watch actual content. It's only noticable with text test patterns IMO.

[DrNegative]

Originally Posted by Trogdor2010

DLP sets can emit the rainbow effect, which if move your eyes alot at certain scenes (like mixes of light and dark; like torches in a dark room or end credits), you will see flashes of colors. Not alot of people are bothered, but If you are bothered by this, you are going to have to live with the limitations of 3-chip sets.

Admittedly, even if a pixel or two is off, it's hardly at all an issue if your main goal is to watch actual content. It's only noticable with text test patterns IMO.

Oh I agree about the RBE for the small minority who suffer from it. But even for the LCD boys, I still wouldn't call it a "limitation" if they have a mis-convergence that they can only see when throwing up test patterns or text, and viewing from 2-3 feet away from a 120" screen. The eye just cannot resolve a 1 pixel shift from further away than that. It's a controlled experiment that will find a flaw, which really isn't a flaw at all in the bigger picture. Forgive the pun.

Like Bill said, its the price of being an enthusiast. I sometimes have to fight myself from grabbing my PJ remote during a football game and tweaking the contrast a notch, boosting the green gain a bit, tweaking the gamma, etc....and then I look over at my friends and family members watching and they have saucer eyes just enjoying it, it looks just great to them. Ignorance is bliss? Who knows.

It is all perspective really, sometimes I think being an enthusiast is a curse in its own right, and makes us forget why we bought our neat little machines in the first place.

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by DrNegative

Oh I agree about the RBE for the small minority who suffer from it. But even for the LCD boys, I still wouldn't call it a "limitation" if they have a mis-convergence that they can only see when throwing up test patterns or text, and viewing from 2-3 feet away from a 120" screen. The eye just cannot resolve a 1 pixel shift from further away than that. It's a controlled experiment that will find a flaw, which really isn't a flaw at all in the bigger picture. Forgive the pun.

Like Bill said, its the price of being an enthusiast. I sometimes have to fight myself from grabbing my PJ remote during a football game and tweaking the contrast a notch, boosting the green gain a bit, tweaking the gamma, etc....and then I look over at my friends and family members watching and they have saucer eyes just enjoying it, it looks just great to them. Ignorance is bliss? Who knows.

It is all perspective really, sometimes I think being an enthusiast is a curse in its own right, and makes us forget why we bought our neat little machines in the first place.

Ignorance is bliss and I'm a happy man

I was messing with the projector the other day and moved the light spill to the bottom of the wall vs the top. Me and a buddy were watching True Grit and when I was looking at the screen I could see the overspill in my peripheral vision, looking straight at it I couldn't notice it. About half way through the movie I pointed it out to him.....he then couldn't help but notice it too

Bill

[GAWD]

You guys are too much lol. I find I can't watch movies alone because I always go into the settings menu of something or other. With my wife or friends there u just can't do that. I try my hardest not to notice anything anymore.

I didn't know about any convergence issues until I started looking at other people's settings, tweeks, setups.

I think we all need to add "Press play, sit back and enjoy" to our signatures so we can remember to enjoy it rather than analyze it :-)

It's harder in the winter months though lol so much time indoors you just get that itch to "make it better"

[Fors*]

Originally Posted by MrFattBill

Ignorance is bliss and I'm a happy man

I was messing with the projector the other day and moved the light spill to the bottom of the wall vs the top. Me and a buddy were watching True Grit and when I was looking at the screen I could see the overspill in my peripheral vision, looking straight at it I couldn't notice it. About half way through the movie I pointed it out to him.....he then couldn't help but notice it too

Bill

LOL....I do the same thing Bill.....it is hard to just sit back and relax. Sometimes I scrutinize the lip sync to the point where I swear it doesn't match, so I then pull out the remote to mess with that as well.

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by Fors*

LOL....I do the same thing Bill.....it is hard to just sit back and relax. Sometimes I scrutinize the lip sync to the point where I swear it doesn't match, so I then pull out the remote to mess with that as well.

Turn off frame interpolation

I do video editing all day so I notice lip sync issues the the average person would NEVER notice

Bill

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by GAWD

You guys are too much lol. I find I can't watch movies alone because I always go into the settings menu of something or other. With my wife or friends there u just can't do that. I try my hardest not to notice anything anymore.

I didn't know about any convergence issues until I started looking at other people's settings, tweeks, setups.

I think we all need to add "Press play, sit back and enjoy" to our signatures so we can remember to enjoy it rather than analyze it :-)

It's harder in the winter months though lol so much time indoors you just get that itch to "make it better"

I bought the Sony changer so I could jump from movie to movie without getting up. I did my sig though.

Bill

[Starmartyr]

Originally Posted by MrFattBill

Ignorance is bliss and I'm a happy man

I was messing with the projector the other day and moved the light spill to the bottom of the wall vs the top. Me and a buddy were watching True Grit and when I was looking at the screen I could see the overspill in my peripheral vision, looking straight at it I couldn't notice it. About half way through the movie I pointed it out to him.....he then couldn't help but notice it too

Bill

Man, I notice all these things as well! It's the curse!! Lip-sync is a big one, but overspill - that has really been getting to me lately. With everything so black on my front wall I always notice the overspill. How would you go about changing where it overspills, Bill? You have a 4k as well, correct? I hope there's a setting or something or else I may never be content with zooming!!

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by Starmartyr

Man, I notice all these things as well! It's the curse!! Lip-sync is a big one, but overspill - that has really been getting to me lately. With everything so black on my front wall I always notice the overspill. How would you go about changing where it overspills, Bill? You have a 4k as well, correct? I hope there's a setting or something or else I may never be content with zooming!!

Well I have a 16:9 screen but when I drop the masking in place its a 2.40ish:1 screen. Your mileage may vary depending on how much content you watch but here is what I would try:

- put up a 16:9 image and zoom and adjust so that the bottom boundries line up with the bottom of your screen, essentially act as if youwhat you have is the lower portion of a 16:9. You will probbaly need to use the manual dials on the 4K to get it where it needs to be as well. You are essentially projecting a lot on the wall above but NOTHING below.

-then start a movie that is 2.35:1 and use the electronic shift to move it down into your screen boundries.

-then when you NEED quick access to 16:9 content set the "Function" button on the 4K remote to flip between aspect ratios and when you hit "S16:9" you can see any menus that are otherwise off the screen, this way you can set audio or select chapters in a movie, then you can use function to switch back to "16:9" to watch the movie. I use "S16:9" when I play XBOX as well with no issues, its not AS sharp as zooming (me and househead discussed this) but it gets the job done for a few hours at a time as needed.

I hope this helps some. At least for me and it MAY be this was for everyone but since you have to look across the bright screen to notice overspill on the top it not nearly as noticeable vs the lower portion of your eye easily picking up the overspill in the darkness below the screen then the advantage of moving it ALL above the screen is a no brainer since it's less noticeable that way.

I think the darker the room is the EASIER it is to pick up even a little bit of stray light, which of course makes sense but in the same respect the darker the room the better everything looks, lol. I am thinking of picking up some of this ProStar to do my side walls out 6 ft on each side as sell as the screen wall for when I add a fixed frame 2.35:1 screen.

If you need anymore help feel free to PM me your number and I can give you a call.



Bill

[GAWD]

I did it!!! Sat through two movies and instead of analyzing I just watched in amazement How sweet it is!!!! Glad I went with the Epson ... so freaking happy it's not even funny.

[MrFattBill]

Originally Posted by GAWD

I did it!!! Sat through two movies and instead of analyzing I just watched in amazement How sweet it is!!!! Glad I went with the Epson ... so freaking happy it's not even funny.

Nice job. I rearranged AGAIN, sat through 50 minutes of fight club (start of Project Mayhem until the Tyler realization) and then came into the house at 3AM.

Bill