When enthusiast sites fail to show any enthusiasm...

[TheRealBob]

Originally Posted by Spankey

You weren't questioning Blu-ray. You were questioning Blu-ray supporters who you claimed threw more crap at HD-DVD supporters.

At this point no good comes from Blu-ray supporters throwing crap, period. It's counterproductive whether or not it rises to the level of crap the HD DVD supporters are throwing.

The HD DVD camp lost the format war. We'd expect them to be bitter and throwing crap. I'd hope we in the BD camp would have a better attitude.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by TheRealBob

I think the sooner we get to a new reality where BD is just simply the high-def successor to DVD, the sooner some people are going to take a hard look at BD vs. downloads and realize that BD has much more to offer. I think the bitterness that still rages on the Blu-ray side is slowing the transition to that new era.

I agree - and that is exactly why articles like the HTF one are so frustrating to many HD enthusiasts. It was written as if they are "people in the know" hailing Blu-Ray will fail unless <insert reason of the week here> because we wrote it. A true HD enthusiast does not need to look very far beyond the words to realize the hypocrisy of what was written.

Instead of truly giving out solid information to HD enthusiasts, they write a bunch of flawed garbage with the sole intention of stalling Blu-Ray adoption. All HD enthusiasts should be unhappy and concerned that these people are out there and I don't think we should stop pointing out those flaws - if it's viewed as "holding on to the war" so be it, but the misinformation has to be undone somewhere.

[Sling]

HDD is the perfect example of a site that cares nothing for HDM by letting SUCing in there High Definition smackdown forums with MOD-blurry supporting it.

[onanie]

Originally Posted by Grubert

All enthusiast sites share some common goals: to share information about the hobby or activity that they discuss; to discuss the current and future developments; and to increase awareness and adoption.

Now that the format war is over, I was expecting all enthusiast sites to stand by such common goals. Not so: some are still distinctly skeptical, voicing yet again the arguments that BD doesn't have enough appeal and/or is too expensive and/or will be superseded by downloads. All of them points which have merit, but it is definitely awkward to hear them from the advocates – especially when they don't even balance that with the strengths of the format...

Excellent article, Grubert. No doubt I share the same view, but I couldn't have put it better. These trashy sites are still searching for vindication for their misguided advice. They are no longer about HT, but about personal sentiments and bitterness.

[onanie]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

I've been reading Engadget for a long time. However I started reading AVS and this site last year around August.

So I disagree with you. Yes there are some nutjobs in the HD DVD camp (Truth Teller and nfinity for one over at Engadget) but overall I'd have to say that most HD DVD owners that I've come into contact with have been by far the more rational and calm/cool/collected HD enthusiast I've met.

Well, I've also been reading endagdet for some time, and I've been reading AVS for far longer than you have. So if that's your qualifying statement for how irrational Blu-ray owners are in comparison, then I believe I have more say than you on that.

HD DVD nutjobs, like yourself, are just that.

I mean, you come blasting into this thread saying how blu-ray supporters attacking HD DVD supporters are putting off adopters, and then literally in the next breath you suggest that blu-ray supporters are less "rational and calm/cool/collected"?

No wonder HD DVD lost, right?

[Rich Peterson]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

Yes there are some nutjobs in the HD DVD camp (Truth Teller and nfinity for one over at Engadget) but overall I'd have to say that most HD DVD owners that I've come into contact with have been by far the more rational and calm/cool/collected HD enthusiast I've met.

I am compelled to reply to this.

I am a very long-time poster at AVS and can't tell you how frustrated I was throughout 2007 over how the forum had been taken over by HD DVD "enthusiasts". I would call a significant percentage of them "nutjobs". They seemed to feed off each other, dominating the HDM forums. The HDM forums were unlike any other area of AVS. Many of these "enthusiasts" are the very folks Grubert is referring to.

I wish I could agree with you that the HD enthusiasts were rational and cool, but I violently disagree based on what I saw. Even now that the format war is over they continue...

[AlaskaDon]

I would venture a guess that quite a few of these HD DVD supporters that are now spouting all this garbage about downloads and SUC, are in fact already Blu supporters and are hiding that fact. If they were to come out and say "Hey, I bought a Blu-ray player today" then they would look pretty foolish trying to engadge in so-called smackdown, and it's arguing for the sake of arguing that they are really into. Lets face it, nobody could be so freaking stupid as to believe some of the flamebait crap that they post. They don't even believe it themselves. It's only thrown out to provoke a response. Please don't feed the trolls

The ones that are not currently backing Blu, will do so in the near future regardless of what they say. They were interested enough in HDM to back HD DVD, and now that Blu is the standard, what choice do they have? They will be onboard once some of the bitterness wears off and they ultimately realize that Toshiba and MS are in fact who they should be blaming for that bitter taste in their mouths.

[4K display]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

It's horseshit NOOB posts like this that are turning some of us long-time BD.commers right the !@#$ off this site...

Grubert = A "must" read
You = Waste of bandwidth

Have a nice day...

[Fozziwig]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

...
Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

You're waiting patiently for internet connectivity on a BD player? I'm not sure it will be quite as dazzling as you think when it arrives. PiP isn't that exciting either.

Excellent post Grubert.

It comes down to this. If you profess to aspire to the very best in home theatre video and audio then you will back Blu-ray 100%, because nothing else comes close.

Criticism is fine. But What we seem to be reading in some places by certain individuals is the systematic undermining of a product. However, the good news is that these squeals of envy will have exactly the same impact on the wider market as they did when we actually had a format war - zero.

If I recall these same twits were pronouncing the format war would rumble on for years with the eventual outcome that all studios would support both formats .

For better or worse, a number of people whose opinions were once respected have been totally humiliated by their suppport of the wrong HD format and we are seeing them flail about trying to dig themselves out of a deep hole. Some will eventually come to their senses. Some will remain bitter for the rest of their lives (but they'll all be watching Blu-ray movies because, above all else, they are hypocrites).

[owa]

Originally Posted by Grubert

It comes as no surprise that the sites which preferred Blu-ray six months ago continue to believe in its success. However, it is disappointing to see sites going from neutrality/thinly-veiled-allegiance-while-professing-neutrality (take your pick) to apathy and passive resistance. I won't be looking to such sites for Blu-ray discussion.

Great post Grubert. It's just unfortunate that a lot of the people that need to read it, probably won't.

[Anthony P]

excellent post as always Grubert

[CassilineKnight]

Lol so now I'm a "noob" and an "HD DVD nutjob" because I simply voiced an opinion thats not popular or doesn't sit well with you.

Umm okay. Lets just forget the part where I've never even owned anything HD DVD related...

But w/e you psycho bluray fanboys feel is necessary...

I've already got plenty of Bluray titles and if you had even read my posts you'd see that I have no animosity towards the format or the movies.

In short those of you attacking me are idiots...plain and simple.

[dtrush]

Wow. It's funny to see how people can go on and on about this war.

The reason I jumped on the BD train was because it had better initial specs & storage that definitely would develop into something better. I really wanted BD to win the format war because I didn't want to deal with taking a 1/2 step better technology I saw in HD-DUD even though it was less expensive.

2nd reason & even more important to me was the scratch resistant nature of the discs. You can't believe how pissed I get when a DVD gets scratched because of kids or sometimes the players themselves spinning the disc & dropping them on the tray.

If HD-DUD would have won out & would have eventually purchased a player & enjoyed the format. Those other issues would have bothered me for a long time though.

Glad I have the best of both worlds. Long live Blu-ray!

[scragham]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

Lol so now I'm a "noob" and an "HD DVD nutjob" because I simply voiced an opinion thats not popular or doesn't sit well with you.

Umm okay. Lets just forget the part where I've never even owned anything HD DVD related...

But w/e you psycho bluray fanboys feel is necessary...

I've already got plenty of Bluray titles and if you had even read my posts you'd see that I have no animosity towards the format or the movies.

In short those of you attacking me are idiots...plain and simple.

on the contrary, your intransigent defense of the moron HD DVD nutjobs of whom you presumuably know nothing is what makes YOU an idiot.

good day, sirrah.

and oh yeah - to grubert - well said.

home theater enthusiasts my ass, is what i say to the nutjob HD DUDers out there.

[Grubert]

Originally Posted by Fozziwig

If I recall these same twits were pronouncing the format war would rumble on for years with the eventual outcome that all studios would support both formats .

In an ironic twist of fate, none of the exclusive studios (whether Blu or Red) ever went neutral. One neutral studio went Red, the other neutral studio went Blu, the war ended.

Come to think of it, has anybody read anything by AV guru Joe Kane (you know, the one who said Blu-ray was all about 'greed'? Last year he was preaching that the HDM future would be dominated by combo player and TotalHD hybrid discs.

He might have published something on Widescreen Review, but I wouldn't know - I let my subscription lapse after their shameful September 07 interview with Paramount, where they harped on replication issues and PiP, while sweeping the capacity/bandwidth issues under the carpet. The Paramount CTO hints that future releases by the studio might lack lossless audio and you don't press the matter further? What kind of journalist does that?

[Maxell]

The problem with software pricing is that retail stores put new releases on sale while their blu-ray counterpart is sold at what will be their normal price.

[MatrixS2000]

Originally Posted by Grubert

He might have published something on Widescreen Review, but I wouldn't know - I let my subscription lapse after their shameful September 07 interview with Paramount, where they harped on replication issues and PiP, while sweeping the capacity/bandwidth issues under the carpet. The Paramount CTO hints that future releases by the studio might lack lossless audio and you don't press the matter further? What kind of journalist does that?

The ones with a personal agenda....

Like I said earlier, anyone who is truly a HD enthusiast should be feeling used by people like this. They are not after what is in the best interest of the enthusiast any longer but interested in pushing an agenda.

[Grisle]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

You asked why?

Well personally I think it comes from the way SOME (please read NOT all) people in the Bluray camp have acted and how those actions are percieved by HD DVD owners and neutral HD enthusiasts...

Personally besides sony being involved in Bluray the only other thing that turned me off was the arrogance of some Bluray owners and the way they were so quick to attack HD DVD owners or even those who simply had the "audacity" to question any of Bluray qualities/features (or lack thereof) in the beginning.

When it comes down to it Bluray is overall a good format. However will it replace DVD? I certainly hope so now that I've invested in the format. However I won't dismiss the threat of downloads or something else...

In short if I think people who support Bluray need to start acting a lil bit more mature. Maybe its only the rabid sony/ps3 fanbase and maybe its as common as I think it is but in the end this war was VERY divisive and the wounds won't heal that quickly.

I've heard MANY HD DVD owners claim whole heartedly that they won't support Bluray no matter what despite the fact that they LOVE High Def movies.

Thats a serious problem. We NEED those people to jump on board. Its not going to happen if theres this constant bashing between the two groups...

Anyways thats my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Still waiting patiently for those Profile 2.0 Players to come out and dazzle me...

I think the attitudes went both ways. A lot of HD DVD owners that I talked to couldn't even look at logic or reason because of their hate for Blu-ray. I can look at HD DVD and see what they had going for them, but I wasn't fooled by the here and now either. I knew that some of the positives that HD DVD had BD would be getting down the road. I didn't feel there was any need for HD DVD in my home and I wanted a PS3 anyway so BD was a perfect fit for me.

I wouldn't consider myself a Sony/PS3 fan boy especially since the only Sony stuff I own is my PS2/PS3 and some of their BDs, but I really love my PS3. I don't have the arrogance or immaturity that you say the "rabid Sony/PS3 fanbase" has, but I feel that making that comment is very arrogant on it's own. I'm not trying to put you down so please don't take it that way, but this Sony/PS3/BD is really tiring. Your comment isn't along the same lines at "Sony is an evil corporation" or stupid stuff about the PS3/BD, but just because someone loves a certain product doesn't mean that they have to be arrogant or immature.

Someone made a comment on a thread that I felt to be true...in response to "It's hard to go anywhere without seeing Sony/PS3 fanboys everywhere"...they said "It's hard to say anything positive about Sony or the PS3 without being called a fanboy"...or something like that.

I realize I've already gone on too long and no one in their right mind will want to read all of it, but I've spent a little time writing it so I won't erase it. Sorry to the person who does read it and just finds me irritating or retarded.

[Sir Terrence]

Originally Posted by CassilineKnight

Lol so now I'm a "noob" and an "HD DVD nutjob" because I simply voiced an opinion thats not popular or doesn't sit well with you.

Umm okay. Lets just forget the part where I've never even owned anything HD DVD related...

But w/e you psycho bluray fanboys feel is necessary...

I've already got plenty of Bluray titles and if you had even read my posts you'd see that I have no animosity towards the format or the movies.

In short those of you attacking me are idiots...plain and simple.

I think you are looking at this one deminsionally and from a one sided perspective. I was a insider on AVS, and I will tell you, they tried to bridle me everytime I went over there to snuff out some lie that Disney was going red. Everytime things didn't go quite right with HD DVD, Amir would say "keep your chin up, just did a presentation for Disney, and they were really impressed. We wowed them". This is a chum throwing tactic that is not only deceiving, it was damn right dishonest. There was never a presentation, and Disney was never considering going red or neutral at ANY time. When I tried to point this out, my threads were deleted, and his were allowed to remain. I finally boycotted AVS, had my insider status removed, and stop going there. I was not rude, nobody thought I was rude, nobody complained that I was rude, I just brought truth to counter a lie. The same thing happened at HDD. I was never rude, but I was continuously censored over and over until I got sick of it.

You have a right to your critisizm, and your opinion. I just think it is a little one sided, and not a three deminsional analysis of the current and past climate in this war. Alot of us have seen this war from a place that many have not.

[Alan Gordon]

First of all, GREAT POST Grubert! I have noticed this as well, and made mention of it in a thread recently regarding the amount of people on AVS who think SUC is the second coming.

Originally Posted by Spankey

I would also add, that this site wouldn't exist and be as popular as it has become if it weren't for the disgusting behavior of HD-DVD biased mods at HTF, AVS, HDD, etc.

Originally Posted by Rich Peterson

I wish I could agree with you that the HD enthusiasts were rational and cool, but I violently disagree based on what I saw. Even now that the format war is over they continue...

I was a poster on AVS (still am, just not their HDM section) and I was forced to come here (No offense Ben & Josh!) because I got tired of all the crap I was forced to read on AVS. At one point, I got tired of war "crap" and decided I just wanted to focus on their Blu-ray Software thread feeling it would probably be safe... but everytime a new title for Blu-ray was announced, posts would pop us saying something along the lines of why doesn't Blu-ray release less crap and more "good titles" like HD DVD. There would also be posters who don't even own a Blu-ray player comment on the movies. There would also be posts talking about how the HD DVD of a Warner title was better due to PiP... which I would understand if it weren't for the fact that, again, some of these people didn't even OWN a Blu-ray player. There were other (more annoying) issues as well... but I've chosen to forget them. For a while things got better... until Paramount switched and it became pure chaos. It almost seemed like there was no moderation in the Blu-ray boards... unless something bad was said about HD DVD. I found this site shortly afterwards and began posting here... where a discussion could be had regarding Blu-ray without someone coming in here saying that Blu-ray sucks... and if they did, it was soon deleted!

While I have seen "childlike" behavior from both sides (and I will never use the term HD DUD... even though it seems somewhat appropriate now), but outside of some misguided Blu-ray fans, Blu-ray has got NOTHING on HD DVD. The sheer magnitude of childish behavior and FUD from their fans has been AMAZING! That being said, I agree that we shouldn't pick on HD DVD fans (heck, I was one of them until I saw the light early last year), but there are some people who still leave themselves open to it... especially the ones who discount Blu-ray by saying that DDL and SUC will win out in the end... or the ones who refuse to believe that HD DVD paid Paramount/DreamWorks even after reputable sources have stated it (Katzenberg recently alluded to it) and yet believe that Sony paid off every single Blu-ray exclusive studio and paid WB $400-$500 million to go exclusive no matter how un-reputable the source that said it was and WB stating that they didn't. BTW, I'm not saying that WB didn't get paid, I'm just saying that not believing one when there was so much proof, and believing the other when there's not. Also, the amount of hatred for Bill Hunt, a man whom I admire greatly for helping to make DVD what it is today, and the behavior towards the Blu-ray insiders was horrible.

Originally Posted by Sir Terrence

I think you are looking at this one deminsionally and from a one sided perspective. I was a insider on AVS, and I will tell you, they tried to bridle me everytime I went over there to snuff out some lie that Disney was going red. Everytime things didn't go quite right with HD DVD, Amir would say "keep your chin up, just did a presentation for Disney, and they were really impressed. We wowed them". This is a chum throwing tactic that is not only deceiving, it was damn right dishonest. There was never a presentation, and Disney was never considering going red or neutral at ANY time. When I tried to point this out, my threads were deleted, and his were allowed to remain. I finally boycotted AVS, had my insider status removed, and stop going there. I was not rude, nobody thought I was rude, nobody complained that I was rude, I just brought truth to counter a lie. The same thing happened at HDD. I was never rude, but I was continuously censored over and over until I got sick of it.

You have a right to your critisizm, and your opinion. I just think it is a little one sided, and not a three deminsional analysis of the current and past climate in this war. Alot of us have seen this war from a place that many have not.

Well said Sir Terrence, well said!

~Alan